How is Constant speed of light referenced

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the constant speed of light and its reference frame in the context of special relativity. Participants explore how different observers perceive distances and time intervals, and how these perceptions relate to the invariance of the speed of light.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question what the speed of light is constant with reference to, noting that distances and times are not absolute in special relativity.
  • One participant asserts that the speed of light is invariant across different reference frames, suggesting that all observers measure the same speed of light regardless of their relative motion.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the speed of light is constant with respect to any reference frame, using an analogy involving a moving truck and a ball to illustrate differences in relative speeds.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the invariant speed of light on time flow and whether it varies with different time flows.
  • One participant suggests that observers agree on the ratio of distance to time for light to traverse an object, despite differing measurements of distance and time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express both agreement and disagreement on various aspects of the speed of light and its reference frames. While some agree that all observers measure the speed of light as constant, others raise questions about the implications of this invariance on measurements of distance and time.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities of measuring distances and times in special relativity, with participants pointing out that these measurements are influenced by the observers' relative motion and the invariance of the speed of light.

Zman
Messages
96
Reaction score
0
The speed of light is constant but with reference to what?
Distances are not absolute and neither is time.

Is it that all inertial observers agree upon the ratio of the distance to the time that it takes for light to go between the two ends of some object even though they don’t necessarily agree upon the length of the object or the time it takes light to traverse that object?

One of the fundamental postulates of Einstein's special theory of relativity is that all inertial observers will measure the same speed of light in vacuum regardless of their relative motion with respect to each other or the source.

I am sure that this statement is definitive but I find it confusing.

I find it confusing because defining speed means defining it with reference to a distance as well as a ‘time span’ and saying that the distance divided by the ‘time span’ is the same for all inertial observers. But distances in SR are not absolute. Different inertial observers will measure different distances for a given object.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You just take the distances and time intervals that are in your equations. The value of c is invariant of the reference frame change.
 
Zman said:
The speed of light is constant but with reference to what?
With reference to every observer measured by rulers and clocks at rest to the observer.
 
Given that c is an invariant in equations I am trying to interpret it in a physical sense.
For instance, in order to be invariant in different time flows does the speed of light vary with the time flow?
 
The speed of light is constant with respect to any reference frame. If x beam of light passes both of observors A and B, who are moving a very high speed with respect to each other, each will observe the speed of light to be c in their own reference frame. This in spite of the fact that each observes the other's time to be slowed up.

Another point. If a person standing in the back of a truck, with speed 30 mph relative to you, standing on the side of the road, throws a ball to you at, relative to him, 70 mph, it will hit you with speed, relative to you of (approximately) 30+ 70= 100 mph.

If that same person directs a flashlight at you the light will move away from him at c, in his reference frame, and will move toward you at c, in your reference frame.

That, and the reason I said "(approximately)" before is because the "addition of velocities" formula in relativity is
[tex]\frac{v_1+ v_2}{1+ \frac{v_1v_2}{c^2}}[/tex]

If [itex]v_1[/itex] and [itex]v_2[/itex] are small compared to c, that [itex]v_1v_2/c^2[/itex] will be very small compared to 1 and difference between that and [itex]v_1+ v_2[/itex] will be unmeasurably small. But if [itex]v_2= c[/itex] the formula becomes
[tex]\frac{v_1+ c}{1+ \frac{v_1c}{c^2}}= \frac{v_1+ c}{1+ \frac{v_1}{c}}[/tex]
and, multiplying both numerator and denominator by c,
[tex]= \frac{(v_1+ c)c}{c+ v_1}= c[/tex]
 
Zman said:
Is it that all inertial observers agree upon the ratio of the distance to the time that it takes for light to go between the two ends of some object even though they don’t necessarily agree upon the length of the object or the time it takes light to traverse that object?

This is basically the right answer. The entire reason observers disagree on distances and times is because they must agree on c. So yes, these differences conspire to keep the observed speed of light c, for all observers.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 74 ·
3
Replies
74
Views
6K
Replies
60
Views
5K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 93 ·
4
Replies
93
Views
6K
  • · Replies 72 ·
3
Replies
72
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 51 ·
2
Replies
51
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K