How is the popular estimate of the Earth's atmospheric mass correct?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the estimation of the Earth's atmospheric mass, specifically questioning the validity of the commonly cited figure of approximately 5 quintillion kilograms. Participants explore how temperature variations might affect atmospheric pressure and, consequently, the calculations used to derive this mass estimate.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the mass of the atmosphere is derived from the force applied per square meter at sea level, raising concerns about how temperature changes might affect this calculation.
  • Another participant questions whether temperature changes affect atmospheric pressure significantly, particularly in non-enclosed systems like the atmosphere.
  • A later reply references the ideal gas law, suggesting that changes in temperature do not directly correlate to changes in pressure in a way that would affect the mass estimate.
  • Some participants discuss whether temperature changes impact the weight of a column of air, with one asserting that while the weight remains constant, determining average pressure could be complicated by temperature variations.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the global average pressure is known and stable, suggesting that the mass estimate remains valid despite local temperature fluctuations.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the mass estimate, indicating a belief that there may be a misunderstanding in the reasoning behind the calculation.
  • Another participant argues that since the Earth's surface area and total atmospheric mass do not change significantly, the average pressure must remain constant, implying that the mass estimate is robust against temperature changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the impact of temperature on atmospheric pressure and the validity of the mass estimate. There is no consensus on whether temperature fluctuations significantly affect the calculations used to derive the atmospheric mass.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential complexities in the relationship between temperature, pressure, and atmospheric mass, but do not resolve these complexities. The discussion includes references to the ideal gas law and the stability of average pressure, indicating that assumptions about these relationships may vary among participants.

Dreksler
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TL;DR
How is the popular estimate of the Earth's atmospheric mass correct if it is just based on the force applied per a certain surface area?
There is a number floating around on the internet that says that the mass of the Earth's atmosphere is about 5 quintillion kilograms. The way that that number was calculated was through knowing that per square meter of surface area at sea level, about 100,000 Newtons of force is applied, which then translated into kilograms per force is about 10,000 KpF, and then you just multiply that per square meter number with the Earth's surface area in meters.

Now what I am puzzled by is that since temperature affects the pressure, if for some reason the temperature suddenly dropped to about -50 degrees celsius globally, the pressure would too, meaning that a lower amount Newtons will be applied per squared meter, leading to a lower KpF number which then leads to a lower estimate of the Earth's mass through that method.

So then how is the 5 quintillion kilograms of total atmospheric mass of the Earth a correct number if the number is just based on the force applied? I am assuming that I am missing something large in my reasoning here so that is why I am asking for some clarification here on that number.
 
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Dreksler said:
temperature affects the pressure,
You mean in a container? Is the atmosphere enclosed in a container?

Dreksler said:
if for some reason the temperature suddenly dropped to about -50 degrees celsius globally, the pressure would too,
In desert areas the temperature drops almost that much during the night. Does this effect the atmospheric pressure substantially?
 
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Dreksler said:
Summary:: How is the popular estimate of the Earth's atmospheric mass correct if it is just based on the force applied per a certain surface area?

Now what I am puzzled by is that since temperature affects the pressure, if for some reason the temperature suddenly dropped to about -50 degrees celsius globally, the pressure would too,
The ideal gas law is ##PV= nRT##. So (with ##n## and ##R## constant) a change in ##T## implies a change in ##PV## which is not the same as a change in ##P##.
 
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Does changing the temperature change the weight of a 1 m^2 column of air above the surface?
 
Chestermiller said:
Does changing the temperature change the weight of a 1 m^2 column of air above the surface?
No, but I can see his point nonetheless. Changing the temp would make it difficult to determine the pressure (average global), which is what is being used to calculate the weight.
 
DaveC426913 said:
No, but I can see his point nonetheless. Changing the temp would make it difficult to determine the pressure (average global), which is what is being used to calculate the weight.
The global average pressure at the surface (sea level) is known. See the U.S. Standard Atmosphere. It comes out to what we call 1 atm. How accurately do you need it?
 
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Dreksler said:
since temperature affects the pressure, if for some reason the temperature suddenly dropped to about -50 degrees celsius globally, the pressure would too, meaning that a lower amount Newtons will be applied per squared meter, leading to a lower KpF number which then leads to a lower estimate of the Earth's mass through that method.
No matter what the temperature, there's still the same mass of air, and close enough the same weight. Water vapour messes with that, somewhat.
 
Chestermiller said:
The global average pressure at the surface (sea level) is known. See the U.S. Standard Atmosphere. It comes out to what we call 1 atm. How accurately do you need it?
Ah. Right. I assumed one was measuring it locally and extrapolating.
 
Dreksler said:
So then how is the 5 quintillion kilograms of total atmospheric mass of the Earth a correct number if the number is just based on the force applied? I am assuming that I am missing something large in my reasoning here so that is why I am asking for some clarification here on that number.
Since the area of the Earth's surface does not change, and the total mass of the atmosphere does not change significantly over the measurement period, the average air pressure over the entire Earth's surface must remain constant.

If you consider thermal changes in local, regional, or global air density, then you are overthinking the elegant solution.
 

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