How is the universe expanding if the speed of light is finite?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the universe's expansion in the context of the finite speed of light. Participants explore how the observable movement of distant galaxies relates to their past velocities and the implications for the universe's expansion or potential contraction. The conversation includes theoretical considerations, conceptual challenges, and mathematical reasoning regarding cosmic expansion and the role of dark energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the finite speed of light means that as we observe distant galaxies, we are seeing them as they were in the past, raising questions about whether they were moving faster then and if this implies a shrinking universe.
  • Others argue that despite galaxies receding more rapidly in the past, this does not indicate a shrinking universe, as they continue to move away from us.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of accelerated expansion, with some stating that the rate of acceleration is slowing down, while others clarify that it is the rate of acceleration itself that is decreasing, not the expansion rate.
  • Participants mention that the accelerated expansion phenomenon began around a redshift of ##z=0.6##, with implications for the behavior of the universe over time.
  • Some express a desire for mathematical expressions to clarify the concepts being discussed, particularly regarding the scale factor and the effects of dark energy on expansion.
  • There is a mention of the relationship between matter density and dark energy, with some participants proposing that the decreasing density of matter leads to dark energy dominating the expansion dynamics.
  • One participant references an external blog post for a conceptual explanation of why dark energy causes accelerated expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of the universe's expansion, the nature of accelerated expansion, and the role of dark energy. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly concerning the interpretation of expansion rates and the relationship between past and present velocities of galaxies.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of expansion and acceleration, as well as unresolved mathematical steps related to the scale factor and the implications of dark energy. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of observational data and theoretical models.

  • #31
Vishal Rana said:
How do u know this? I thought it was accelerating cause of dark energy?

Well Expansion rate can be defined as ##H(t)## where ##H(t)=\frac {\dot {a}(t)} {a(t)}##. Now we can write the Friedmann Equation in the form of,

##\frac {H^2} {(H_0)^2}=Ω_ma^{-3}+Ω_Λ## and Now in here ##H## is Hubble parameter at any time t. ##H_0## Hubble parameter now. ##Ω_m## matter density
##Ω_Λ## dark energy density and ##a## is the value of the scale factor at that time respeect to the ##a(t_0)=1##.

Note: ##Ω_m## and ##Ω_Λ## should be current (Now) values

Now we can re-write the equation as,

##H^2={(H_0)^2}[Ω_ma^{-3}+Ω_Λ]##

take square root and we get,

##H=H_0\sqrt{Ω_ma^{-3}+Ω_Λ}##

Since, ##H_0##, ##Ω_m## and ##Ω_Λ## are constant numbers, we can simply think this equation like this,

##H=\sqrt{x^{-3}}##

and I graphed it in desmos and I get,
desmos-graph.png


As PeterDonis Said ##\ddot {a}(t)## is icreasing but it doesn't mean ##H(t)## is also increasing.
 

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  • #32
In layman terms, are we saying that the dark energy is/will eventually expand faster than C but that actual matter of the galaxies can not move faster than C because of common relativity? So this is why the standard model does not work?
Pardon my ignorance.
 
  • #33
graybass said:
In layman terms, are we saying that the dark energy is/will eventually expand faster than C but that actual matter of the galaxies can not move faster than C because of common relativity? So this is why the standard model does not work?
Pardon my ignorance.
Dark energy does not expand, but I think what you mean to ask is will the effect of dark energy cause expansion faster than C. It ALREADY causes recession velocities faster than c. The objects at the outer regions of our observable universe are already receding from us at about 3c. Recession velocity is not proper motion, so no speeding tickets are issued.
 

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