Studying How to self-study physics past High School Level?

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A teenage physics enthusiast seeks guidance on advancing their knowledge beyond A-level physics. They have studied various textbooks and completed numerous practice problems but are unsure how to proceed. The discussion emphasizes the importance of parallel development in mathematics and physics, particularly the necessity of mastering calculus, including vector calculus, before delving deeper into physics topics like electromagnetism and astronomy. Recommendations include following established university curricula, such as MIT's or Yale's free online courses, and utilizing specific textbooks like Halliday, Resnick, and Krane for foundational physics. Participants suggest exploring hands-on projects related to electromagnetism and astronomy to enhance practical understanding. Additionally, resources for learning mathematics relevant to physics are highlighted, with an emphasis on avoiding overly abstract mathematical texts. Overall, the conversation encourages a structured approach to learning, integrating both theoretical and practical aspects of physics.
  • #61
fresh_42 said:
The internet can be a dangerous place to learn something. You easily get distracted. Videos - in my opinion - sell the illusion of understanding without reassuring that insights were provided. You watch them, agree, and forget about them quicker than it took to watch them. I don't think that such a passive way of study can ultimately lead to insights you would alternatively gain by working through a subject with a lot of paper and ink. You already lost a lot of time by commenting here. If you were really interested, you would use every spare minute to learn more about a subject. The way from school to relativity theory and quantum mechanics is a long, winding one. The necessary mathematics alone is complicated and all but trivial. Curiosity should be your major stimulus. And then, it is relatively irrelevant what your resources are as long as they are from a university, a lecture note, or a good textbook.
There's a risk associated with almost everything.
But as mozibur mentioned there's a lot of value to be found on the internet. A lot of skills can be learned from YouTube lectures and I personally learned how to assemble and fix watches with simple tools using the internet.
and I agree, mindless consumption of science is not the way to do it.
 
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  • #62
sairoof said:
There's a risk associated with almost everything.
But as mozibur mentioned there's a lot of value to be found on the internet. A lot of skills can be learned from YouTube lectures and I personally learned how to assemble and fix watches with simple tools using the internet.
and I agree, mindless consumption of science is not the way to do it.
Mindless consumption of anything other than possibly recreation and entertainment is not conducive to good results.
 
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  • #63
fresh_42 said:
This is likely a matter of personal taste and might not be generally applicable. It might also depend on whether videos are used exclusively or additionally. My major concern is the passivity they bring with them. I think science cannot be learned by consumption, and that it has to be actively worked out. You have to make mistakes and follow wrong paths in order to see possible traps, and there are no mistakes and wrong paths in videos. However, I admit that this is a personal opinion based on the fact that I have to write down something if I want to memorize it reliably, and you may have a different experience and opinion.
True, but you can complement with ChatGpt, while fact-checking what it says. The back-and-forths with it can be intense.
 
  • #64
fresh_42 said:
My major concern is the passivity they bring with them. I think science cannot be learned by consumption, and that it has to be actively worked out. You have to make mistakes and follow wrong paths in order to see possible traps, and there are no mistakes and wrong paths in videos.
That is 150% true, and why I agree with your point about the videos. Of course, I'm not experienced in learning things, but so far out of all the ways of learning I've tried and tested, I've learnt that just passively sitting there and consuming content without following it up with some action of my own (even if that's just writing down the key points, or following it up with research further), or doing things like reading notes, have never really worked - no matter how interesting I find the content.
sairoof said:
But as mozibur mentioned there's a lot of value to be found on the internet. A lot of skills can be learned from YouTube lectures and I personally learned how to assemble and fix watches with simple tools using the internet.
and I agree, mindless consumption of science is not the way to do it.
I am a fan of watching maths/physics Youtube videos on my way to school and in history lessons. I also watch lectures then follow up by doing questions that apply what I've learnt. For me that's not mindless consumption - and you're right that it brings value
WWGD said:
True, but you can complement with ChatGpt, while fact-checking what it says. The back-and-forths with it can be intense.
I'm genuinely terrified of using ChatGPT. I used to use copilot to check my answers to problems when the textbook didn't provide them, and the utterly obscene amount of times it got even the most basic physics wrong put me off from using AI for maths and physics pretty much permanently. I use AI to find sources but that's pretty much it. How do you use it?
 
  • #65
TensorCalculus said:
That is 150% true, and why I agree with your point about the videos. Of course, I'm not experienced in learning things, but so far out of all the ways of learning I've tried and tested, I've learnt that just passively sitting there and consuming content without following it up with some action of my own (even if that's just writing down the key points, or following it up with research further), or doing things like reading notes, have never really worked - no matter how interesting I find the content.

I am a fan of watching maths/physics Youtube videos on my way to school and in history lessons. I also watch lectures then follow up by doing questions that apply what I've learnt. For me that's not mindless consumption - and you're right that it brings value

I'm genuinely terrified of using ChatGPT. I used to use copilot to check my answers to problems when the textbook didn't provide them, and the utterly obscene amount of times it got even the most basic physics wrong put me off from using AI for maths and physics pretty much permanently. I use AI to find sources but that's pretty much it. How do you use it?
As a funnel, asking more and more specific questions. I've used Copilot and, while I received some answers that were wrong, many were right. I test drove it asking it questions I knew the answer to. Edit:
https://mathforums.com/t/does-bing-...-it-possible-to-make-it-more-reliable.370376/
 
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  • #67
WWGD said:
As a funnel, asking more and more specific questions. I've used Copilot and, while I received some answers that were wrong, many were right. I test drove it asking it questions I knew the answer to. Edit:
https://mathforums.com/t/does-bing-...-it-possible-to-make-it-more-reliable.370376/
Ah. I see. Not as an answer checker. I found that copilot got the answers wrong at least 40% of the time, and that I'd have to then check/cross-reference the validity myself, at which point I might as well just mark my answers via checking multiple times/cross referencing methods with similar problems. I might try using chatgpt for general questions, if I'm stuck on any of the courses/readings I've picked up recently
WWGD said:
Sorry, Ill elaborate on this later.
don't apologise! :D
 
  • #68
I hear Claude 3.7 sonnet is currently the strongest model; make sure to use the extended thinking option
 
  • #69
I haven't tried it - it's blocked on our school laptops :(
does it work on phones?
 
  • #70
WWGD said:
As a funnel, asking more and more specific questions. I've used Copilot and, while I received some answers that were wrong, many were right. I test drove it asking it questions I knew the answer to.
That is a problem. If you do not know how to tell what is what then it is ultimately useless! De-learning is a terrible job! Even Wikipedia is a better reference than any AI.
 
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  • #71
TensorCalculus said:
I haven't tried it - it's blocked on our school laptops :(
does it work on phones?
Yes, there is an app and a website
 
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  • #72
fresh_42 said:
That is a problem. If you do not know how to tell what is what then it is ultimately useless! De-learning is a terrible job! Even Wikipedia is a better reference than any AI.
I was able to tell what's what. In my experience it is statistically better than other methods, more portable, easier to implement. The process of " funneling" itself is helpful and just straight critical thinking. But to each their own choice of learning methods, strategies.
 
  • #73
fresh_42 said:
That is a problem. If you do not know how to tell what is what then it is ultimately useless!
Yeah - I have to agree on this. I've used AI to help me with subjects other than maths and physics, but as soon as it comes to me asking about physics, it gets it really really wrong half the time, and I have to fact check it myself by looking at other sources on the internet which say the same answer, at which point I might as well have just not used the AI and researched it myself.
fresh_42 said:
De-learning is a terrible job! Even Wikipedia is a better reference than any AI.
What's wrong with Wikipedia? I know it's edited by lots of people, but I find it quite useful.
Muu9 said:
Yes, there is an app and a website
Ok, I've just tried it and it does seem to be more intelligent than Copilot at least (which is a good sign)
WWGD said:
I was able to tell what's what. In my experience it is statistically better than other methods, more portable, easier to implement. The process of " funneling" itself is helpful and just straight critical thinking. But to each their own choice of learning methods, strategies.
I'm not able to tell what's what - that's the problem. The only wrong answers I can spot are orders of magnitude off. Do you have an example of funneling?

Also - I managed to get my hands on a copy of Haliday resnick walker! (though it's only arriving in about a week's time)
I've also spent as much free time and sleep as possible going through the MIT calculus courses (and the yale physics ones - though less so on them) - I've gotten a fair way through! They've been really really helpful and I've learnt a lot! 😃
 
  • #74
TensorCalculus said:
Yeah - I have to agree on this. I've used AI to help me with subjects other than maths and physics, but as soon as it comes to me asking about physics, it gets it really really wrong half the time, and I have to fact check it myself by looking at other sources on the internet which say the same answer, at which point I might as well have just not used the AI and researched it myself.

What's wrong with Wikipedia? I know it's edited by lots of people, but I find it quite useful.

Ok, I've just tried it and it does seem to be more intelligent than Copilot at least (which is a good sign)

I'm not able to tell what's what - that's the problem. The only wrong answers I can spot are orders of magnitude off. Do you have an example of funneling?

Also - I managed to get my hands on a copy of Haliday resnick walker! (though it's only arriving in about a week's time)
I've also spent as much free time and sleep as possible going through the MIT calculus courses (and the yale physics ones - though less so on them) - I've gotten a fair way through! They've been really really helpful and I've learnt a lot! 😃
I'm referring to using all of these combined, and complementary to each other.
 
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  • #75
TensorCalculus said:
What's wrong with Wikipedia? I know it's edited by lots of people, but I find it quite useful.
There is nothing wrong with it, as long you won't be confronted with the admins there - then it becomes politics with all its ugly faces. Wikipedia is not always as accurate as it should be, especially in non-science subjects but I also found errors on mathematical pages. I like it because of its references and the possibility of switching languages. The different language versions are not simply translations, they have different content. You don't even need to speak a language fluently to read about subjects with many formulas or words of Latin origin. This reduces possible biases. It also depends on what you are looking for. Wikipedia cannot replace a textbook or lecture note, as it usually does not contain derivations. It's more a collection of quick references than a collection of treatises.
 
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  • #76
Pages can be modified by anyone with an Internet connection. Edit: The material in the page may "Converge" to the correct answer, but it's not clear if/when.
 
  • #77
@Muu9 - are you paying for claude? It's not letting me use the extended thinking mode otherwise... Edit: Even without extended thinking mode, it's doing really really well. No incorrect answers so far and the problem difficulty is decent. Not to mention the debugging skills when coding - I love the fact that I can link it to my github :D
 
  • #78
Deepseek allows for deep thinking in the free tier
 
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  • #80
  • #81
To highlight the difference between differential geometry and vector analysis, it's worth noting that in vector analysis we have the four equations of Maxwell's equations (in Maxwell's original description there were in the order of twenty equations). In differential geometry there are two:



$$dF = 0$$

$$*d*F = J$$



Here ##F## is the electromagnetic strength, ##J## is the current whilst ##d## is the exterior derivative which generalises ##grad##, ##curl## & ##div## and ##*## is the Hodge star. I hope you agree not only have we reduced the equations in number but they also look simpler. But more is true - Maxwell's equations are true only for 3d Euclidean space whereas these equations are true for any curved space and for any dimension.

Now Yang-Mills theory is a generalisation of Electromagnetism and it models the weak and strong force. In differential geometry the two equations above generalise to the Yangs-Mill's equations:



$$d^DF = 0$$

$$*d^D*F = 0$$



Here ##d^D## is the exterior covariant derivative which further generalises the exterior derivative ##d## by combining it with a covariant derivative ##D##. Notice just how similar it looks like the equations for Electromagnetism. I hope this helps clarify why differential geometry is worth pursuing for its use in physics.
 
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  • #82
Yes - I see what you mean!
Mozibur Rahman Ullah said:
I hope you agree not only have we reduced the equations in number but they also look simpler. But more is true - Maxwell's equations are true only for 3d Euclidean space whereas these equations are true for any curved space and for any dimension.
This is actually really, really cool (you have convinced me to learn differential geometry just by showing me this haha). Thank you for showing it to me :D
Mozibur Rahman Ullah said:
Here dD is the exterior covariant derivative which further generalises the exterior derivative d by combining it with a covariant derivative D.
I don't really understand what this means though - do you mind explaining it to me? I've tried to do some research to clarify on the internet, but I just ended up getting bogged down in endless articles that I don't understand, AI explanations that don't really answer the question and more and more difficult maths :(
 
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  • #83
@TensorCalculus . I posted early in this thread. I see that it's grown to >80 posts. From a quick scan, many posts concern advanced topics. But at this stage, you should be concentrating on core fundamentals. One step at a time. That's why I recommended early on that you follow an established university syllabus, rather than being directed in a zillion directions. FWIW I got my PhD in physics many moons ago and never touched differential geometry. But I preferred spending my time having fun in the lab.
 
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  • #84
CrysPhys said:
@TensorCalculus . I posted early in this thread. I see that it's grown to >80 posts. From a quick scan, many posts concern advanced topics.
Really? I thought it was just the differential geometry? What else is there?
CrysPhys said:
But at this stage, you should be concentrating on core fundamentals. One step at a time. That's why I recommended early on that you follow an established university syllabus, rather than being directed in a zillion directions.
You're right - I completely agree - and that's why I listened to you and @Muu9 - I've been doing the courses from MIT and Yale. I'm a very decent way through the first one I decided to do which was on single variable calculus. As for all the other suggestions, I've taken it all on board and made a list of things I want to do, in order of increasing difficulty
CrysPhys said:
FWIW I got my PhD in physics many moons ago and never touched differential geometry. But I preferred spending my time having fun in the lab.
Really?!!!! Oh. But it looked so cool - and I've seen it being mentioned before in various physics... things before. I'd want to go into astrophysics later on (at least, right now I would want to, who knows I might change my mind) so differential geometry would probably be useful (relativity and all that)... right???
 
  • #85
TensorCalculus said:
Really?!!!! Oh. But it looked so cool - and I've seen it being mentioned before in various physics... things before. I'd want to go into astrophysics later on (at least, right now I would want to, who knows I might change my mind) so differential geometry would probably be useful (relativity and all that)... right???
I'm not qualified to answer that. I specialized in experimental solid-state physics and never needed it for my particular research. Others can chime in where it would be needed or helpful. But again, you've got a waay lot more fundamental core physics to learn; so don't get distracted and side-tracked.
 
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  • #86
CrysPhys said:
But again, you've got a waay lot more fundamental core physics to learn; so don't get distracted and side-tracked.
genuinely - thank you so much for this, I need to hear this :D
I always get carried away learning things too early and then messing up all of my basics, all the time, and I'm terrified of it:
TensorCalculus said:
I fear that if I accidentally skip straight to something too advanced I'll not have strong basics.
^ as in my original query
(though I have noted down @Mozibur Rahman Ullah 's suggestions - particularly the books that were strongly recommended. @CrysPhys may have reminded me of something that I desperately needed reminding of, but I did a bit of digging after the recommendation and differential geometry looks like something I would want to study - even if it weren't useful in physics (which, it quite clearly, can be), the maths seems awesome. I do think that I have a bit of time till I'm ready for it though, I think there is a point there... )
 
  • #87
TensorCalculus said:
Yes - I see what you mean!

This is actually really, really cool (you have convinced me to learn differential geometry just by showing me this haha). Thank you for showing it to me :D

I don't really understand what this means though - do you mind explaining it to me? I've tried to do some research to clarify on the internet, but I just ended up getting bogged down in endless articles that I don't understand, AI explanations that don't really answer the question and more and more difficult maths :(

Great, I'm glad you feel its worth learning. But I'd hold your horses about learning this stuff seriously at this stage of your education. This is advanced stuff and the exterior covariant derivative is really advanced stuff! Typically, you will learn vector analysis in undergraduate courses and differential geometry in graduate courses and the exterior covariant derivative is most likely taught at a second course at this level. Certainly I wasn't introduced to it in my masters course on theoretical physics. Nor does the textbook I recommended, Lee's Smooth Manifolds explains this. I first learnt about it in Baez & Muniain's Gauge Fields, Knots and Gravity which I have already recommended. It takes the physics approach to differential geometry and so avoids all the very careful constructions in math whilst still being relatively rigorous. The chapter you should look at is chapter II - 3, Curvature and the Yang-Mills equation, pg.250. But I urge you to study the text systematically, or at least go through it trying to understand the concepts that they introduce to get a sense of the terrain. It pays to go through the text step by step. But I also think at this stage of your education you should be getting the fundamentals of physics down - that is really, really important - and not be distracted by advanced and really advanced stuff. I promise you they will still be waiting for you later on in your career. It's a problem that I've had in my own education, so I feel your frustrations. I explained what I did in my previous post as motivation that this stuff is worth learning and not as an indication that you should be learning this stuff at this stage of your education.

Nevertheless, I've written an exposition below which I hope will give you a sense of the terrain without getting bogged down in detail. I hope it helps without further confusing you and leading you astray!

First, to really get grips with the exterior covariant derivative you need to be comfortable with manifolds, tangent bundles and vector bundles as well as their spaces of sections - basically tangent fields and vector fields, as well as the wedge product (a generalisation of the cross product which works for all dimensions, the cross product only works in 3d) and tensor product and of course differential forms and the exterior derivative, oh as well as understanding that tangent fields can also be interpreted as certain differential operators. This is a long list of mathematical technology, so I've written an exposition that gives you a birds-eye view of some of the neccessary concepts without getting into the detail that's needed to really grasp these ideas and make use of them.


The first thing to learn is manifolds. This is basically a formalisation of one aspect of the notion of covariance. In fact Einstein said:


"So there is nothing for it but to regard all imaginable systems of coordinates, on principle, as equally suitable for description of nature"


Manifolds are spaces that are equipped with charts, that is coordinate systems. They are also equipped with transition functions that map between these different charts. This sounds complicated, but it's not so bad as we learn to manipulate manifolds. For example, if you had two manifolds ##M## & ##N## then you can multiply them ##M \times N## and you can take their disjoint sum ##M \sqcup N##. For example if we took the real line is a manifold as well as the circle. If we multiply them we get the infinite cylinder and if we add them we just get the line 'next' to the circle. So we have a calculus of manifolds. It's also important to distinguish between manifolds by themselves and manifolds that are embedded in Euclidean space. For example, if you imagine a sphere - by the way, mathematicians call the surface of a ball, a sphere and the interior of a ball, is just called a ball, then you will probably imagine a sphere in space. This makes it easy to see what the tangent planes on a sphere are. This is a sphere embedded in space. When a mathematician refers to a sphere, it is a sphere all by itself, sort of hanging in the void. This makes it difficult to understand what the tangent planes are as there's nowhere we can take the tangent plane. There's only the void surrounding the sphere. However, there is a way of introducing the tangent planes. This relies on maths but a quick way of seeing this, is simply to invoke a theorem that all manifolds are embeddable in a Euclidean space of high enough dimension and then just take the tangent planes as usual. The manifold with all the tangent spaces attached is called the tangent bundle over that manifold.


Now if ##M## is a manifold - for example a sphere - then ##TM## is the usual notation for the tangent bundle over ##M##. The map ##T## is called the tangent functor and this has nice properties. For example, if ##M## & ##N## are manifolds then ##T(M \times N) = TM \times TN## and obviously ##T(M \sqcup N) = TM \sqcup TN##. This is already important. For example, the tangent space to the infinite cylinder can now be easily calculated. It is ##T(S^1 \times \mathbb{R}) = T(S^1) \times T(\mathbb{R})##.


It also turns out that if we have maps ##f: M \rightarrow N## and another map ##g: N \rightarrow P##, then ##T(g\circ f) = Tg \circ Tf##. To understand this intuitively, it best to see the situation geometrically. When we map one manifold to another, then we also map the tangent planes on the first manifold to the second manifold. Then if we have a composition of maps then the tangent maps also compose. It's best to see this as an illustration but I don't know if Physics Forums supports images. Its also worth mentioning that this rule is basically the chain rule we learn to love in calculus, generalised to multivariable calculus and then to manifolds. The way to show this is to work locally, that is by fixing charts and then working out the various expressions.


Now the covariant derivative ##D## is a replacement for the directional derivative in differential geometry. The usual notion of a directional derivative doesn't work as it relies on the embedding of the manifold in Euclidean space. However, that theorem of embedding the manifold in a Euclidean space of high enough dimension comes in useful again. It turns out that the covariant derivative is the orthogonal projection of the directional derivative onto the tangent space. I say tangent space rather than tangent plane because whilst a 2d manifold has a 2d tangent space - aka a tangent plane - a n-dimensional manifold has a n-dimensional tangent space. Usually, when the covariant derivative is introduced it is done intrinsically but I find this geometric way of defining it more intuitive.


We need the covariant derivative because the exterior covariant derivative combines the exterior derivative and the covariant derivative. I haven't introduced the exterior derivative but we can at least see how the exterior covariant derivative is defined on Baez & Muniain, pg.250


We are going to go for an inductive definition. This is because we have differential 0-forms, 1-forms, 2-forms all the way upto ##n##-forms where ##n## is the dimesion of the manifolds. A differential k-form is said to have order ##k##. The space of k-forms on a manifold ##M## is denoted by ##\Omega^k(M)##. It will turn out that the exterior derivative of a k-form will result in a form of one degree higher, aka a k+1-form. In symbols:


##d: \Omega^k(M) \rightarrow \Omega^{k+1}(M)##


We really ought to have a superscript ##k## on the ##d## but this is just usually left implicit to avoid notational clutter.


Now, its important to realise 0-forms on a manifold are precisely real valued functions on the manifold. Then the exterior derivative ##d## of a differential 0- form - aka a function ##f## - is defined by:


##df(v) := v(f)##


Here ##v## is a vector field, really a tangent field. Now I've already said above that tangent fields can be reinterpreted as a certain differential operator. So ##v(f)## is saying ##v## is deriving ##f##.


Now the exterior covariant derivative is defined by introducing an auxilary covariant derivative ##D## and this must live on some vector bundle ##E##. We haven't introduced vector bundles before. They are a generalisation of tangent bundles. And just as tangent bundles have a covariant derivative, so do vector bundles. Now instead of having k-forms we have instead E-valued k-forms. The space of all E-valued k-forms is written as ##\Omega^k(M, E)##. Then the exterior covariant derivative maps E-valued k-forms to E-valued k+1-forms. Or in symbols:


##d^D : \Omega^k(M, E) \rightarrow \Omega^{k+1}(M, E)##


Here again the ##d^D## ought to have a superscript ##k##, but its left implicit. Now to run the inductive definition of ##d^D## we need to find out what E-valued 0-forms are. These are just vector fields of E. We denote them by latin letters, so in the following formula for ##d^D##, by the letter s.


##(d^Ds)(v) = D_vs##


Thus we see in the zeroth step of the inductive definition we see we have replaced the derivative ##v## acting on ##f## by ##D_v## on ##s##. Here ##f## is a 0-form, aka a function, and ##s## is an E-valued 0-form, aka a vector field in ##E##.


We then inductively define ##d## for higher differential forms via a variation of the Liebniz rule for the derivative of products (Baez & Muniain, pg.63) :


##d(\alpha \wedge \beta) = d\alpha \wedge \beta + (-1)^k \alpha \wedge d\beta##


Here ##k## is the order of the differential form ##\alpha##. The symbol ##\wedge## is the wedge or exterior product - it's the generalisation of the cross product to any dimension because the usual cross product just works in 3d only. The corresponding inductive definition for the exterior covariant derivative is on Baez & Muniain, pg.250. It is also a variation on the Liebniz product rule:


##d^D(s \otimes \alpha) = d^Ds \wedge \alpha + s \otimes d\alpha##


Here ##s## is an E-valued 0-form and ##\alpha## is an E-valued k-form. Here the symbol ##\otimes## is the tensor product.


It's been a long post but I hope this gives you some sense on how the exterior covariant derivative comes about. To be honest, I don't expect you to grasp all this as I've skipped over a lot of detail - for example, what is the wedge product. And don't feel frustrated if it escapes you, as I've already said the exterior covariant derivative is really, really advanced stuff. But I do hope what I've written gives you a feeling for the shape of the terrain you would have to cover to rigourously learn this stuff. If you have any questions on what I've written then feel free to ask.
 
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  • #88
Mozibur Rahman Ullah said:
But I'd hold your horses about learning this stuff seriously at this stage of your career.
<<Emphasis added.>> The OP is 13! :rolleyes:
 
  • #89
CrysPhys said:
<<Emphasis added.>> The OP is 13! :rolleyes:
I meant to say at this stage of your education! Good catch.
 
  • #90
CrysPhys said:
<<Emphasis added.>> The OP is 13! :rolleyes:
I've edited it to remove the offending word!
 
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