How to truly understand the math in physics

  • Thread starter Thread starter aiop
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Physics
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the mathematical foundations of physics, particularly how mathematical expressions relate to physical concepts. Participants explore resources, methods, and personal experiences in grasping the underlying mathematics in physics equations, such as the universal gravitational equation and orbital velocity calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks recommendations for books or research directions that clarify the use of mathematics in physics, emphasizing a desire to understand the reasoning behind mathematical expressions.
  • Another participant suggests that there is no single source for this understanding, indicating that learning occurs progressively through studies and application in physics classes.
  • A request for material recommendations is made, highlighting a strong desire to comprehend the mathematics involved.
  • One participant mentions a specific textbook, "University Physics with Modern Physics," as a potential resource, although they express limitations regarding its content.
  • Another participant discusses the derivation of the orbital velocity equation from the gravitational force equation, emphasizing the need for mathematical derivation and understanding physical relations.
  • One participant argues against a direct connection between the gravitational force and orbital velocity formulas, explaining the proportional relationships involved in the gravitational force and how the constant G is used to formulate the equation.
  • A personal preference for an experimental approach to understanding mathematics is shared, along with a reflection on how studying related concepts can reveal deeper insights into mathematical beauty in physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on how to approach understanding the mathematics in physics. While some agree on the importance of deriving equations and understanding physical relationships, others emphasize different methods, such as experiential learning. No consensus is reached on a singular approach or resource.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that understanding mathematical expressions in physics often requires familiarity with both the mathematical rules and the physical concepts, which may not be straightforward. There is acknowledgment of the complexity involved in deriving relationships and the potential for varying interpretations of the connections between different formulas.

Who May Find This Useful

Undergraduate students in physics, educators seeking to enhance their teaching methods, and individuals interested in the interplay between mathematics and physics may find this discussion valuable.

aiop
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
I want to know if there's a book or a direction of research that explains math in a way that will give me the tools to be able to look at math and truly understand why each piece is used in each spot like the physics who invented it must of understood.

For example: Just for something as simple as the universal gravitational equation Fg= Gm1m2/r^2 how can I understand that, and more so how can I understand why a basic square root sign changes that to mean the required orbiting velocity of a satellite. Orbiting v= square root Gm/r

I am an undergraduate student studying theoretical physics in my first year.

Thanks in advance!
Aiop
 
Physics news on Phys.org
aiop said:
I want to know if there's a book or a direction of research that explains math in a way that will give me the tools to be able to look at math and truly understand why each piece is used in each spot like the physics who invented it must of understood.

No, there is no single source that can teach you this. You'll learn the rules of math as you progress in your studies and your physics classes should teach you how to apply the math to the physics to solve problems and derive different rules and laws Both processes happen simultaneously and are ongoing.
 
Do you have any recommendations in material in the mean time? I am dying to understand it.
 
Other than a standard college-level textbook, I can't say that I have any. The physics textbook I used was an older version of this one.
In case the link breaks in the future, the book is: University Physics with Modern Physics, by Hugh D. Young (Author), Roger A. Freedman (Author)
You should be able to buy a copy that doesn't have the "modern physics" part, since you shouldn't need anything from that section for several years.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: aiop
Drakkith said:
Other than a standard college-level textbook, I can't say that I have any. The physics textbook I used was an older version of this one.
In case the link breaks in the future, the book is: University Physics with Modern Physics, by Hugh D. Young (Author), Roger A. Freedman (Author)
You should be able to buy a copy that doesn't have the "modern physics" part, since you shouldn't need anything from that section for several years.
Had a good laugh looking at one of the reviews. Damn loose leaf textbooks are HORRIBLE. Always rip, crinkle, fold no matter how careful you are.
 
aiop said:
For example: Just for something as simple as the universal gravitational equation Fg= Gm1m2/r^2 how can I understand that, and more so how can I understand why a basic square root sign changes that to mean the required orbiting velocity of a satellite. Orbiting v= square root Gm/r

It doesn't work like this. A priori, you could not know or see why using the square root will give you the desired quantity.
But you can mathematically derive the desired expression by using physical relations.
You start with the physical relation Fg = Fz, the zentripetal force Fz=mv^2 /r (m is the mass of the satellite, either m1 or m2).
And then you solve the equation for v using mathematical rules.

In the end you see: 'ah, that looks almost like the original term, just with the square root'.
Sometimes, in a script or in a book, the calculation is not carried out, and there is just an arrow or a phrase like 'it follows', so you have to check the derivation yourself if you don't understand it immediately.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: aiop
aiop said:
I want to know if there's a book or a direction of research that explains math in a way that will give me the tools to be able to look at math and truly understand why each piece is used in each spot like the physics who invented it must of understood.

For example: Just for something as simple as the universal gravitational equation Fg= Gm1m2/r^2 how can I understand that, and more so how can I understand why a basic square root sign changes that to mean the required orbiting velocity of a satellite. Orbiting v= square root Gm/r
I don't believe there's a direct connection between these two formulas. The first formula gives the gravitational force between two objects, and the second gives the velocity required for a satellite to remain in orbit.

The thinking that went into the first formula is that the attractive force Fg is proportional to each of the masses involved, but is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. In symbols, this is Fg ∝ ##\frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}##. (The symbol ∝ means "is proportional to.") So given two masses m1 and m2 whose centers are r units apart, if you double m1, the gravitational force will double. If you double both masses, the gravitational force will quadruple (be four times as large).

If the two masses (m1 and m2) are moved so that they are at a distance of 2r, the gravitational force will be one fourth of what it was when they are r units apart, since we're now dividing by (2r)2 = 4r2.

The constant G is what allows us rewrite the proportionality above as an equation; i.e., ##F_g = G\frac{m_1m_2}{r^2}##.

For your equation on the orbital velocity, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_speed#Mean_orbital_speed. In the derivation, they make a simplifying assumption, that the mass of the orbiting satellite is negligible in comparison to the mass of the object the satellite is orbiting.
 
Personally, I prefer an experimental/experiential approach to understanding the math rather than a proof-based approach.

But Gauss's law (electricity and magnetism), quantum mechanics, and my study of the hydrogen atom's symmetries revealed more about the mathematical beauty (symmetries) of Newton's Universal Law of gravitation than studying it in isolation likely would have.

Patience grasshopper. Keep working hard. "True understanding" comes in layers like peeling an onion. Great beauty awaits.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Okantomi and aiop

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
9K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
32
Views
2K
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
6K
Replies
41
Views
8K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K