Ideals and Ker(f) Solution for (a), (b), and (c)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the verification of solutions to parts (a), (b), and (c) of a mathematical problem involving ring homomorphisms and the structure of certain matrices. Participants seek clarification on definitions and the correctness of their approaches, particularly regarding the surjectivity of a proposed function.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their solutions for parts (a) and (b), and questions the ability to address part (c) due to a lack of definition for the output of the function.
  • Another participant suggests defining an explicit map \( f : R \to \mathbb{Z} \) and demonstrates how to show it is a surjective ring homomorphism with kernel \( I \).
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of the $(1,2)$-entry of a matrix and its relevance to the proposed function.
  • One participant revises their function definition and seeks confirmation on its correctness, expressing confusion about why a different matrix entry cannot be used in the function definition.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the surjectivity of the proposed function, with a clarification that not all elements of \( R \) fit a specific matrix form.
  • Another participant points out that \( R/I \) is isomorphic to \( \mathbb{Z} \) and discusses the implications for whether \( R/I \) is a field.
  • Questions arise about how to demonstrate that a specific coset has no inverse, leading to a clarification regarding the nature of inverses in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need for a correct definition of the function and the properties of the proposed mappings. However, there remains disagreement and uncertainty regarding the surjectivity of the function and the implications for the structure of \( R/I \). The discussion does not reach a consensus on the correctness of the solutions presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for clearer definitions and assumptions regarding the mappings and the structure of the matrices involved. The discussion also highlights unresolved mathematical steps related to the surjectivity of the function and the properties of the cosets.

Joe20
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I have attached my solution for part (a), (b) and (c). I am not sure if part (a), (b) are correct. However for part (c), the question did not define the output of the function so I am not sure if I can do it as such as I do not know how to continue. Therefore need verification on all the 3 parts. Thanks!
 

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Your proofs for parts (a) and (b) look good. Your solution to (c), however, does not make sense. To prove (c), define an explicit map $f : R \to \Bbb Z$, and show that it’s a surjective ring homomorphism with kernel $I$. The result then follows from the first isomorphism theorem for rings.

Consider $f : R\to \Bbb Z$ given by $f(A) = A_{12}$, where $A_{12}$ is the $(1,2)$-entry of $A$. Show that $f$ has the desired properties.
 
Euge said:
Your proofs for parts (a) and (b) look good. Your solution to (c), however, does not make sense. To prove (c), define an explicit map $f : R \to \Bbb Z$, and show that it’s a surjective ring homomorphism with kernel $I$. The result then follows from the first isomorphism theorem for rings.

Consider $f : R\to \Bbb Z$ given by $f(A) = A_{12}$, where $A_{12}$ is the $(1,2)$-entry of $A$. Show that $f$ has the desired properties.
Hi, what does the 1,2 entry means? Am I right to say it is incorrect to prove surjective and homomophism from what I have thus far?
 
Alexis87 said:
Hi, what does the 1,2 entry means? Am I right to say it is incorrect to prove surjective and homomophism from what I have thus far?
The $(1,2)$-entry of $A$ means the entry in the first row and second column of $A$.
 
Hi, I have included an e.g. of showing of f:R -> R (real no) being defined by the function to be a. In my question above, it was not being defined. So am I going to define it myself? How am I going to define it in order to prove for surjective homorphism? [it stated as f: R -> Z (integer)]
 

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No, you want $f: R \to \Bbb Z$ given by $f\left[\begin{pmatrix}a&b\\0&a\end{pmatrix}\right] = a$. That's what I meant earlier, but had a typo (it was supposed to read $f(A) = A_{11}$, not $f(A) = A_{12}$).
 
Euge said:
No, you want $f: R \to \Bbb Z$ given by $f\left[\begin{pmatrix}a&b\\0&a\end{pmatrix}\right] = a$. That's what I meant earlier, but had a typo (it was supposed to read $f(A) = A_{11}$, not $f(A) = A_{12}$).
I have revised it to as attached. Is it correct now? [Note: I only show the proof till surjective homomorphism, I shall continue once this is correct].

I am still somehow confused with f:R→Z given by f((a b)¦(0 a ))=a.(why can't it be f((a b)¦(0 a ))=b)?
 

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You have proven correctly that $f$ is a ring homomorphism, but you have not proved correctly that $f$ is surjective. Elements of $R$ are matrices of the form $\begin{pmatrix}a&b\\0&a\end{pmatrix}$, so matrices like $\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&0\end{pmatrix}$ where $a\neq 0$ do not belong to $R$.

The reason you can't make $f : R\to \Bbb Z$ be $f\left[\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&a\end{pmatrix}\right] = a$ is because not all elements of $R$ are of the form $\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&a\end{pmatrix}$. The matrix $\begin{pmatrix}1&1\\0&1\end{pmatrix}$, for example, belongs to $R$. Look back at the definition of $R$.
 
Euge said:
You have proven correctly that $f$ is a ring homomorphism, but you have not proved correctly that $f$ is surjective. Elements of $R$ are matrices of the form $\begin{pmatrix}a&b\\0&a\end{pmatrix}$, so matrices like $\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&0\end{pmatrix}$ where $a\neq 0$ do not belong to $R$.

The reason you can't make $f : R\to \Bbb Z$ be $f\left[\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&a\end{pmatrix}\right] = a$ is because not all elements of $R$ are of the form $\begin{pmatrix}a&0\\0&a\end{pmatrix}$. The matrix $\begin{pmatrix}1&1\\0&1\end{pmatrix}$, for example, belongs to $R$. Look back at the definition of $R$.
Thanks. Btw, I am not sure how to see if R/I is a field or not. May need help.
 
  • #10
Since $R/I$ is ring isomorphic to $\Bbb Z$, one can just say that since $\Bbb Z$ is not a field, $R/I$ is not a field. Of course, proving part (d) does not require use of the isomorphism. It is enough to show that the coset $\begin{pmatrix}2&0\\0&2\end{pmatrix} + I$ has no inverse.
 
  • #11
Euge said:
Since $R/I$ is ring isomorphic to $\Bbb Z$, one can just say that since $\Bbb Z$ is not a field, $R/I$ is not a field. Of course, proving part (d) does not require use of the isomorphism. It is enough to show that the coset $\begin{pmatrix}2&0\\0&2\end{pmatrix} + I$ has no inverse.
May I ask how do we know that the coset has no inverse?
 
  • #12
It follows from the fact that there is no integer solution to the equation $2a = 1$. By the way, just to be clear, by “inverse” I meant multiplicative inverse, not additive inverse.
 
  • #13
Euge said:
It follows from the fact that there is no integer solution to the equation $2a = 1$. By the way, just to be clear, by “inverse” I meant multiplicative inverse, not additive inverse.
Thank you so much! I got it now.
 

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