News If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

[Siv]

Patriotism doesn't lead people to shoot illegal immigrants. That I'd more associate with nationalism. Many people confuse nationalism with patriotism, but the two are separate. Nationalism is a collective movement, it is based on groupthink. People get caught up in it, the fervor, the emotion, etc...it is a form of collective mania. Other forms of collective manias can be for example stock market bubbles and market crashes, manias over celebrities, even politicians (I'd say Barack Obama had a form of a mania around him during the '08 election).

Patriotism, on the other hand, is an individual type of thing. Patriotism isn't a collective emotional wave you get caught up in, it can mean going against the collective wave, many Democrats even epitomized this during the Bush years over the Iraq War when they said, "Dissent is a high form of patriotism." Patriotism oftentimes requires sacrifice as well.

Ok, so what's the rationale behind this not-collective sense of feeling that your own country is the best ? You would feel differently if your grandparents had been born a few hundred kilometers north/south/east/west.

Consider that your post may be just a collection of feelings (baseless assumptions, hyperbole, condescension) absent any logical argument before getting overly caught up in the condemnation of group associations as irrational.

So tell me, what's so rational about group associations ?
It comes naturally to us, because we evolved to associate with a particular tribe and had a deep rooted distrust/resentment towards other groups. Studies show that even small children are capable of it. But if you ask me, this is not such a harmless or mild thing. This sows the seed for lots of horrible things.

 

[CAC1001]

Ok, so what's the rationale behind this not-collective sense of feeling that your own country is the best ? You would feel differently if your grandparents had been born a few hundred kilometers north/south/east/west.

What makes you think patriotism is thinking one's country is "the best?" Patriotism is having a deep pride for one's nation, culture, country, etc..whatever. We find it intranationally as well. Texans are very proud to be from Texas, Californians are very proud to be from California, New Yorkers are proud to be from New York, etc...then you get even more localized, with city pride.

Also East Coast versus West Coast, North versus South, etc...being patriotic does not mean one thinks their country/culture is per se "the best."

That's one thing that bugs me with many of the elitist types who say, "Patriotism is beneath me, I am a 'global citizen,'" as if being patriotic and having deep pride in one's nation prevents one from being a worldly citizen.

Blindly thinking one's country is the best and that's that and everyone else is beneath them is more a nationalistic type of mindset IMO.

 

[Char. Limit]

As an example of how patriotism is not limited to country, I feel that people from Eastern Washington are superior to people from Western Washington. As it happens, I live in Eastern Washington.

 

[Phrak]

You left out the part about how badly America needs the Mexican labor.

I don't need Mexican labor. I'm not an employer. You?

I lock my doors at times to deter unwelcome visitors. Do you?

 

[Galteeth]

What kind of world would it be if everyone just chose which laws they had to follow and which ones they didnt. .

Probably a lot like the one we have now.

 

[Siv]

What makes you think patriotism is thinking one's country is "the best?" Patriotism is having a deep pride for one's nation, culture, country, etc..whatever.

But what's the rationale behind this deep pride ?
The fact that your parents/grandparents/great grandparents happened to be born where they were and not a few hundred kms north/south/east/west ?

Now suppose I was born Indian but I move to Singapore, and, after 5 years, become a Singapore citizen. I should feel this deep pride for Singapore or India ? Or both ? What would the basis be for either of these choices ?!

 

[Siv]

As an example of how patriotism is not limited to country, I feel that people from Eastern Washington are superior to people from Western Washington. As it happens, I live in Eastern Washington.

Actually, I think that all the people living in <my address> are superior.
No, not superior. I have deep pride for all those living in <my address>.

 

[xxChrisxx]

The UK can't stop illegals and we have at minimum 23 miles of sea between us and foreign land. You lot have no chance.

It's also rather myopic to think that a great big wall will stop people crossing the boarder. All it does is force those who are going to cross to be more sneaky and therefore become more organised. You also massively encourage people traffiking. There is a demand for people to cross the boarder. Where there is demand, there is supply, this supply is generally run by people with low moral fibre.

So unless you are going to turn it into 'FORTRESS AMERICA' and run something as ruthless as a Soviet era boarder, you'll never stop illegals.

 

[mheslep]

The UK can't stop illegals and we have at minimum 23 miles of sea between us and foreign land. You lot have no chance.

It's also rather myopic to think that a great big wall will stop people crossing the boarder. All it does is force those who are going to cross to be more sneaky and therefore become more organised. You also massively encourage people traffiking. There is a demand for people to cross the boarder. Where there is demand, there is supply, this supply is generally run by people with low moral fibre.

So unless you are going to turn it into 'FORTRESS AMERICA' and run something as ruthless as a Soviet era boarder, you'll never stop illegals.

The goal is not to stop all illegals, the goal is to reduce the flow to the point where immigration is manageable by law and integration with existing society/culture is possible; yes there is a very good chance decent border security can do just that; no I don't want a Fortress America and I doubt very few Americans do either. Where do you get these conceptions? The Guardian?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2943534&postcount=35

 

[Char. Limit]

That's exactly how they do feel over the annexation of Texas in 1845.

I missed this earlier, but I'd say the same thing to these people that I say to people who still complain about the American Civil War.

That was over 150 years ago. Get over it.

 

[CAC1001]

I missed this earlier, but I'd say the same thing to these people that I say to people who still complain about the American Civil War.

That was over 150 years ago. Get over it.

You mean the Waw of Nawthern Aggression

 

[CAC1001]

But what's the rationale behind this deep pride ?
The fact that your parents/grandparents/great grandparents happened to be born where they were and not a few hundred kms north/south/east/west ?

I don't know if there is necessarilly a "rationale" to it, that's just how humans are. Irish are proud, English are proud, Scottish are proud, Italians are proud, Germans are proud, Greeks are proud, etc...

Now suppose I was born Indian but I move to Singapore, and, after 5 years, become a Singapore citizen. I should feel this deep pride for Singapore or India ? Or both ? What would the basis be for either of these choices ?!

You would probably feel pride for your new country, but you'd also still feel pride for India too.

 

[WhoWee]

Post again after we send 5 million illegal aliens and their families to Maine.

 

[WhoWee]

A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation.

 

[Galteeth]

A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation.

Are you seriously?

 

[Char. Limit]

Are you seriously?

Proper adjective-adverb use, but that's beside the point.

What WhoWee suggests is radical, yes. But when people scream at even what I'd consider moderate solutions, like Arizona's recent law, well...

I'm not sure where I want to go from that. I'll let you decide.

 

[skeptic2]

A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation.

May I assume that you admire the East Germans for their solution to their emigration problem?

 

[WhoWee]

Wow! Please keep my post in context.

Specifically, "A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation. "

My point is this, we have a serious problem with illegal immigration, smuggling/trafficking, and(possibly) terrorist activites (?). It has become a political issue, costs are enormous, and nobody seems to have a comprehensive solution.

It seems to me the politicians are leaning towards "comprehensive immigration reform". However, experience tells me (think "health care reform") that the politicians will seek a solution that guarantees their own political objective (such as being re-elected) rather than the best solution for the problem, the people and our country.

Hence, I propose that once an immigration reform package is put into place (whether 30 million are granted amnesty or everyone is deported and forced to become a citizen in a traditional way, that afterward the new policy is enforced without exception.

Quite frankly, if it's easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally, then it coould be assumed that people sneaking across at that point would be doing something that is illegal.

Am I seriously saying to shoot first and ask questions later in this context? Yes, sure, absolutely, and why not - if there's no reason to sneak across except to smuggle drugs (or worse) - then shoot to kill.

Legislative actions have consequences - it's time for the politicians to stop playing games and take responsibility for their work.

 

[Galteeth]

- if there's no reason to sneak across except to smuggle drugs (or worse) - then shoot to kill.

Except there obviously is.

And I don't think smuggling drugs, or the suspicion there of, is deserving of death.

 

[NobodySpecial]

You mean the Waw of Nawthern Aggression

Operation enduring banjo ?

 

[skeptic2]

Quite frankly, if it's easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally, then it coould be assumed that people sneaking across at that point would be doing something that is illegal.

Your premise is faulty. It is not easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally. Certainly it is much more difficult than to cross the border to go shopping or visit relatives.

 

[WhoWee]

Except there obviously is.

And I don't think smuggling drugs, or the suspicion there of, is deserving of death.

Again, read my post and stay in context - then explain why someone would need to sneak across the border in light of well-planned immigration reform. My post is focused on Congress taking the issue seriously - not ptomoting executions/mass slaughter.

 

[WhoWee]

Your premise is faulty. It is not easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally. Certainly it is much more difficult than to cross the border to go shopping or visit relatives.

Again, read my posts in context.

 

[Siv]

I don't know if there is necessarilly a "rationale" to it, that's just how humans are. Irish are proud, English are proud, Scottish are proud, Italians are proud, Germans are proud, Greeks are proud, etc...

Oh sure. We all feel it. Its a strong genetic program, this need to identify with one group and think its the best, and that other groups are bad or not good enough.

But there is no rationale behind this warm fuzzy feeling. And its not a harmless one. The strong feelings that come about because of the accident of your being born in a certain latitude/longitude can sometimes result in serious harm.

As Dawkins says, given human nature, the fewer differentiating labels we have, the better.

 

[Siv]

Wow! Please keep my post in context.

Specifically, "A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation. "

My point is this, we have a serious problem with illegal immigration, smuggling/trafficking, and(possibly) terrorist activites (?). It has become a political issue, costs are enormous, and nobody seems to have a comprehensive solution.

Actually some of the most dangerous terrorists are those who have entered the country legally.

 

[Galteeth]

Again, read my post and stay in context - then explain why someone would need to sneak across the border in light of well-planned immigration reform. My post is focused on Congress taking the issue seriously - not ptomoting executions/mass slaughter.

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

 

[Char. Limit]

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

So you find out, get a green card, and wait a few years before becoming a citizen and voting and working for a living in this great nation.

I can see the dream now.

 

[skeptic2]

Char.Limit, it's more than a few years they would have to wait. First in line are spouses and close relatives, next are those with higher education and special skills. Ordinary laborers that don't meet any of the special conditions are at the bottom of the list and may never get in.

 

[CAC1001]

Oh sure. We all feel it. Its a strong genetic program, this need to identify with one group and think its the best, and that other groups are bad or not good enough.

Why do you keep regarding a person having pride in their culture/ethnicity/region/country etc...as this person thinking their group is the "best?" I said Irish are proud, Germans are proud, Italians are proud, etc...doesn't mean any of them think of themselves as "the best."

 

[Siv]

Why do you keep regarding a person having pride in their culture/ethnicity/region/country etc...as this person thinking their group is the "best?" I said Irish are proud, Germans are proud, Italians are proud, etc...doesn't mean any of them think of themselves as "the best."

Oh come on.
You're proud to be American, because all countries are equally good, with America as good as Britain and India and ...