If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

[z0rn dawg]

No one knows exactly why cats occasionally eat grass. Often it appears to act more as an emetic than a nutriment. My own couch lions are indoor-only but they'll sometimes eat a bit of vegetable that falls on the floor; I suspect they do that only because they 1) see me eating it and 2) it's usually covered in butter, sauce or cheese. Obligate carnivore means they must eat meat to survive; although cats can eat veggies, they rarely will of their own accord if a source of meat is readily available. Cats cannot manufacture the amino acid taurine in their bodies; they must get it from meats which are the only natural sources of it. Vegans who attempt to force their moral code upon their feline friends (aside from deserving rather stiff punishment which preferably involves soaking in melted lard followed immediately by an introduction to a large, hungry feral cat colony) must be careful to feed them foods with taurine added.

So, why does my (indoor-outdoor) cat eat grass...like all the time? He gets some nutrients out of it. There's no way it tastes good because he usually pukes it up in an hour or so.

Shouldn't humans do what's natural? We're clearly meant to get some vitamins, minerals, etc. that are only found in meat. To me, that sounds like veganism was not how humans were meant to live. I go back to what's natural. And we really don't know what the long term effects of taking supplements are (I think so anyway). It could turn out that it's very unhealthy in the long run.

 

[negitron]

So, why does my (indoor-outdoor) cat eat grass...like all the time? He gets some nutrients out of it. There's no way it tastes good because he usually pukes it up in an hour or so.

Yes, that's what an emetic is: it induces vomiting. In all seriousness, you may want to take your cat to the vet and have this looked into. Occasional grass-eating is normal in felines but 'all the time" is decidedly abnormal and may indicate a serious problem.

 

[Monique]

(I wonder whether it is possible to establish a symbiosis with the bacteria by ingesting them).

I'll take the liberty to respond to myself. Here is a PubMed citation of a paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum".

Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria.

In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v283/n5749/pdf/283781a0.pdf"[/color]

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

 

[Equate]

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

A friend of mine does just that. Every now and then she scoops up a pinch of soil and eats it.

She says it "tastes great".


PS When she was pregnant last year her cravings for soil literally increased tenfold.

Go figure...

 

[negitron]

A friend of mine does just that. Every now and then she scoops up a pinch of soil and eats it.

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

 

[Equate]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

Thanks a lot. I will let her know.

 

[lisab]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

Wow, I've never heard of pica! Interesting.

I knew a woman who craved the chalky stuff in wallboard (gypsum), especially when she was pregnant. She would pick at the wall and eat it when she talked on the phone. Other than that, she was pretty much normal, though.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm going to read it now. but honestly, the statement that theoretically you can achieve sufficiency, when in fact they usually fail, isn't much comfort to me. wealthy, educated, and past child-bearing age... that's fine, i have no quibbles with someone wanting to follow their religious beliefs. but in practice, not on paper, the diets usually fail. this can have detrimental long-term, often disastrous effects on children.

there is definitely some good info in there. lots of can and may. don't really care for some of the other portrayals, like saying 'similar' instead of 'shorter' when talking about growth.

as for the grading of conclusions, only one was grade I, one grade II, then the rest, and most other conclusions unevaluated.

I'll take the liberty to respond to myself. Here is a PubMed citation of a paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum".

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

sure, that's an option. might want to boil it first.

 

[Mk]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

It also might not. Ice is the most common pica, and people just eat it because they like it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you want a PubMed bombardment on the detrimental health of meat-eating populations?

Would that be detriments to the average meat eater? or to those who eat a balanced healthy diet containing meat?

 

[Monique]

Would that be detriments to the average meat eater? or to those who eat a balanced healthy diet containing meat?

Either one or both. Here is a reference I have on hand:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121684303/abstract"

Colorectal cancer is a major cause of cancer mortality and is considered to be largely attributable to inappropriate lifestyle and behavior patterns. The purpose of this review was to undertake a comparison of the strength of the associations between known and putative risk factors for colorectal cancer by conducting 10 independent meta-analyses of prospective cohort studies. Studies published between 1966 and January 2008 were identified through EMBASE and MEDLINE, using a combined text word and MESH heading search strategy. Studies were eligible if they reported estimates of the relative risk for colorectal cancer with any of the following: alcohol, smoking, diabetes, physical activity, meat, fish, poultry, fruits and vegetables. Studies were excluded if the estimates were not adjusted at least for age. Overall, data from 103 cohort studies were included. The risk of colorectal cancer was significantly associated with alcohol: individuals consuming the most alcohol had 60% greater risk of colorectal cancer compared with non- or light drinkers (relative risk 1.56, 95% CI 1.42-1.70). Smoking, diabetes, obesity and high meat intakes were each associated with a significant 20% increased risk of colorectal cancer (compared with individuals in the lowest categories for each) with little evidence of between-study heterogeneity or publication bias.[/color] Physical activity was protective against colorectal cancer.

Public-health strategies that promote modest alcohol consumption, smoking cessation, weight loss, increased physical activity and moderate consumption of red and processed meat are likely to have significant benefits at the population level for reducing the incidence of colorectal cancer.[/color] © 2009 UICC

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Either one or both. Here is a reference I have on hand:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121684303/abstract"

Your quoted material would seem to indicate that the greater incidence of this issue is connected to excessive meat consumption (among other things), not meat consumption itself.

Vegetarians, on average, tend to be wealthier individuals who exercise more and who, as a matter of course, pay closer attention to their diet. It seems to me that these would be the primary contributing factors to the average vegetarian enjoying greater health than the average non-vegetarian. Have you any studies that would suggest that the complete lack of meat in their diet should be counted as a primary factor?

 

[negitron]

It also might not. Ice is the most common pica, and people just eat it because they like it.

Someone who eats ice may or may not have pica; someone who eats dirt almost certainly does.

 

[0xDEADBEEF]

Someone who eats ice may or may not have pica; someone who eats dirt almost certainly does.

No, the issue is much more complicated very much debated due to the common occurrence especially in pregnant women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy#Human_geophagy

 

[Hel]

oh, hai!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479234?dopt=Abstract

: Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):576S-578S.
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B-12) status in Seventh-day Adventist ministers in Australia.

Hokin BD, Butler T.

Pathology Department, Sydney Adventist Hospital and Adventist Health Department, Wahroonga, Australia. bevan@sah.org.au

As part of the Adventist Ministers' Health Study, a series of cross-sectional surveys conducted in 1992, 1994, and 1997, the serum vitamin B-12 status of 340 Australian Seventh-day Adventist ministers was assessed in 1997. The ministers in the study participated voluntarily. Of this group, 245 were either lactoovovegetarians or vegans who were not taking vitamin B-12 supplements. Their mean vitamin B-12 concentration was 199 pmol/L (range: 58-538 pmol/L), 53% of whom had values below the reference range for the method used (171-850 pmol/L) and 73% of whom had values <221 pmol/L, the lower limit recommended by Herbert. Dual-isotope Schillings test results in 36 lactoovovegetarians with abnormally low vitamin B-12 concentrations indicated that dietary deficiency was the cause in 70% of cases. Data from the dietary questionnaires supported dietary deficiency as the cause of low serum vitamin B-12 in this population of lactoovovegetarians and vegans, 56 (23%) of whom consumed sufficient servings of vitamin B-12-containing foods to obtain the minimum daily maintenance allowance of the vitamin (1 microg).

PMID: 10479234 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why you even bothered telling me that, although I appreciate your concern that us vegetarians are not getting the nutrients we need. In my post I said that I know that a deficiency in B12 is common amongst vegetarians AND that I just got tested for it, and my B12 level is WITHIN the reference range. Nor do I take supplements (though I probably will start sometime soon).

My point was that if a person pays attention to what they're eating they will be healthy whether or not they eat meat.

Meat alone is not the factor that will make a diet healthy. Somebody who eats meat but makes daily trips to McDonalds, drinks exclusively Dr. Pepper, and eats lots of Twinkies will be much worse off than someone who is vegetarian and has a deficiency in B12.

A healthy diet alone will not make a person healthy either. They're going to need to exercise and drink a lot of water.

The biggest health problem in America is obesity, and that is not caused by vegetarianism.
I know it's not the topic of this thread, but I think it's more important to think about big issues than worry about whether someone who doesn't eat meat is deficient in a vitamin. Deficiencies are more easily fixed than a clogged artery.

 

[negitron]

No, the issue is much more complicated very much debated due to the common occurrence especially in pregnant women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy#Human_geophagy

It's still largely considered a pica in the US, per the DSM IV.

 

[Evo]

The biggest health problem in America is obesity, and that is not caused by vegetarianism.

Not true, actress Kirstie Alley claims that when she switched to a vegetarian diet, she started loading on the pounds. She said a fried, cheese filled vegetarian burrito has three times the grease and calories of a regular meat burrito. She's right.

Kirstie Alley: Vegetarianism made me gain 83 pounds

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2009/05/06/2009-05-06_kirstie_alley_vegetarianism_made_me_gain_83_pounds.html

For seven months I was a vegetarian, and I can't tell you how much weight I gained being a vegetarian!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20276768,00.html

She thought that because it was vegetarian it would be ok. She started eating fried foods (there's your heart clogging artery food), tons of butter on the vegetables, cheese, breads, pizza. Vegetarian diets can be extremely unhealthy. Not to mention deficient in essential vitamins and nutrients.

A sensible balanced diet with meat can be healthy, low fat, high fiber, and rich in NATURAL vitamins and nutrients that are essential to good health. We are just beginning to understand the importance of getting nutrients from the foods themselves and not from artificial supplements.

People that are deficient in B12 can have very serious health problems including cardiovascular disease, and permanent permanent nerve damage. It is very serious in children and especially infants.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12.asp

 

[Hel]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

 

[Evo]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

No different than with a balanced healthy meat diet.

 

[Hel]

Of course. I don't think it matters what people eat or don't eat, as long as they are aware of the nutrients they need to get to be healthy and make sure they get those. That, coupled with water and exercise will keep them healthy whether they eat meat or no.

 

[Evo]

Of course. I don't think it matters what people eat or don't eat, as long as they are aware of the nutrients they need to get to be healthy and make sure they get those. That, coupled with water and exercise will keep them healthy whether they eat meat or no.

And it's not a need for water either, that was dispelled. You just need liquid in any form. That can be soda, juice, beer, wine, etc...just as long as you get enough. Just realize that some forms of liquid are also diuretics.

 

[Sorry!]

And it's not a need for water either, that was dispelled. You just need liquid in any form. That can be soda, juice, beer, wine, etc...just as long as you get enough. Just realize that some forms of liquid are also diuretics.

How is this true? Where's an article to back up this claim.

I don't believe it.

 

[Evo]

How is this true? Where's an article to back up this claim.

I don't believe it.

You don't know this? It's been posted before. I'll see if I can find it, but you can probably find it easily. Water is water, whether it is in coffee, tea, juice, etc... it doesn't matter. That's been common knowledge for quite awhile. It was stressed after people started dying from drinking too much water. Water is in everything you drink and too much water (from all sources) can kill you.

 

[Monique]

Water is much better for you than soda, the way you take your liquids does matter (I know people who only drink diet coke/mountain dew/coffee to hydrate themselves).

 

[Sorry!]

You don't know this? It's been posted before. I'll see if I can find it, but you can probably find it easily. Water is water, whether it is in coffee, tea, juice, etc... it doesn't matter. That's been common knowledge for quite awhile. It was stressed after people started dying from drinking too much water. Water is in everything you drink and too much water (from all sources) can kill you.

I am certain that water is a better source of hydration than soda. It is also better for your body and therefore more healthy. I don't doubt that there is water in soda... you can even drink your urine and survive off it for a bit does that mean its the same as water too?

 

[Proton Soup]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

again, it doesn't matter that it isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet. fact is, it is a problem in most vegetarian diets.

also, if you're going to go through the trouble to assess your b12 status, the best way is to test methylmalonic acid. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030301/979.html

as for education, Kirstie is a shining example of just how uneducated people are. read Monique's linked paper. vegetarianism is damn complicated. you can't even trust eating foods that promise you "omega-3s", because it's mostly ALA they're putting in there. for non-piscavore vegetarians, you need to go to the health-food store and pay a steep price for a smidgen of algae-derived DHA.

 

[Hel]

People? Uneducated? Shocking!
/end sarcasm

When these people are educated, however, they should be told, "Foods high in saturated fats and carbohydrates are bad for you", not "Don't be vegetarian, you'll become anemic."

Most uneducated people in developed counties suffer from an excess of food, not a lack thereof. There is no excuse for a vegetarian in a developed country to be anemic.

 

[Proton Soup]

truly educated people realize that they are omnivores, and eat a variety of lean meats, seafood, fruits, vegetable, etc.

actually, i think you can do OK as a piscavore vegetarian. wouldn't surprise me at all if the aquatic ape hypothesis is correct.

 

[Moonbear]

again, it doesn't matter that it isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet. fact is, it is a problem in most vegetarian diets..

B12 deficiency is only a problem in vegan diets, where absolutely NO animal sources of foods are included. Regular vegetarian diets only avoid meats, not other sources of food from animals. For example, a regular vegetarian can eat cheese or eggs, but not steak or chicken.

There is nothing inherently healthy about NOT being a vegetarian either...it also requires paying attention to what one eats, how much and in what combinations, to eat a healthy diet that includes meats too.

 

[Proton Soup]

B12 deficiency is only a problem in vegan diets, where absolutely NO animal sources of foods are included. Regular vegetarian diets only avoid meats, not other sources of food from animals. For example, a regular vegetarian can eat cheese or eggs, but not steak or chicken.

There is nothing inherently healthy about NOT being a vegetarian either...it also requires paying attention to what one eats, how much and in what combinations, to eat a healthy diet that includes meats too.

yes, i know. there is a whole spectrum of vegetarianism, depending on whether people are doing it for health reasons, religion, or guilt.