Implications of varying the definition of the derivative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the implications of altering the definition of derivatives in calculus, particularly through the lens of infinitesimal differences and ratios. Participants examine how these changes might affect the interpretation and application of derivatives, with a focus on logarithmic transformations and their consequences.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a new approach to derivatives by considering infinitesimal ratios instead of differences, leading to a modified expression for derivatives.
  • Another participant suggests taking logarithms to simplify the concept, indicating that this could help relate the new formulation back to traditional derivative concepts.
  • There is a discussion about which function is being differentiated, with a focus on the logarithm of the original function.
  • Participants explore the implications of the new derivative form, questioning what it means for the rate of change and how it could be applied in different contexts.
  • One participant introduces the Chain Rule in relation to the new formulation, prompting further inquiry into the derivative of the logarithmic function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the implications of the new derivative definition and its applications. There is no consensus on the meaning of the new derivative form or its broader implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants do not fully resolve the mathematical steps involved in the new definitions or the implications of using logarithmic transformations. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the applications of these ideas.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring advanced calculus concepts, particularly in the context of derivatives and their interpretations. It could also appeal to individuals interested in the philosophical implications of mathematical definitions.

japplepie
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I have been playing around with calculus for a while and I wondered what would it be like to make some changes to the definition of derivatives.

I'd like to look at the original definition of derivatives in this way (everything is in lim Δx→0):
F(x+Δx) - F(x) = F'(x) * Δx
The Δx factor ensures that the RHS remains 0 when the LHS is 0.
And we get the familiar
(F(x+Δx) - F(x)) / Δx = F'(x)

I'd like to think of it as taking infinitesimal differences over some infinitesimal interval, and I wondered what would it look like if I were to take infinitesimal ratios instead. And it came out looking like this:
F(x+Δx) / F(x) = F*(x) ^ Δx
The Δx exponent ensures that the RHS remains 1 when the LHS is 1.
Then it comes out as
(F(x+Δx) / F(x)) ^ (1/Δx) = F*(x)

I've tried to use this on one sample function, F(x) = x^2; the results are F'(x) = 2x and F*(x)=e^(2/x)

If F'(x) means the rate of change of between two things (like velocity when F(time) is position), then what does F*(x) mean?
 
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Take logarithms to reduce it to the concept of the derivative.
 
micromass said:
Take logarithms to reduce it to the concept of the derivative.
If you take the logarithm, the denominator will be the same Δx, but the numerator will have logs wrapped around it
log(F(x+Δx)) - log(F(x)) instead of F(x+Δx) - F(x).
 
Right, so what function are you taking the derivative of?
 
micromass said:
Right, so what function are you taking the derivative of?
Ohh, the function log(F(x))
-----------------------------
So this means that
log(F*(x)) = F'( log(F(x)) ) right?

What else does it imply or what else could it be applied to?
 
Last edited:
japplepie said:
Ohh, the function log(F(x))
-----------------------------
So this means that
log(F*(x)) = F'( log(F(x)) ) right?

What else does it imply or what else could it be applied to?
Hmm, not F'(log(F(x)), but G'(x), where G(x)=log(F(x)). But that is perhaps what you meant?
Then what is G'(x), if you use the Chain Rule?
 

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