Implicit partial differentiation functional det[]

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding implicit partial derivatives using Jacobian determinants for a function defined by two variables, u and v, in terms of x, y, and z. The participants explore the application of the chain rule and implicit differentiation in this context, with a focus on the derivatives ∂z/∂x and ∂z/∂y.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to find the derivatives ∂z/∂x and ∂z/∂y, expressing uncertainty about the constancy of y and x, respectively.
  • Another participant suggests that using the chain rule and implicit differentiation from first principles may enhance understanding, implying that the current approach may not be optimal.
  • A later reply clarifies that "first principles" in this context refers to basic differentiation rules rather than deriving everything from limits, emphasizing the importance of understanding these foundational concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the best approach to solve the problem, with some advocating for a foundational understanding of differentiation rules while others are focused on the specific application of Jacobian determinants. No consensus is reached on the best method to proceed.

Contextual Notes

There is a lack of clarity regarding the assumptions about the constancy of variables x and y in the problem, which may affect the derivatives being sought. Additionally, the participants do not resolve the mathematical steps involved in applying the chain rule or implicit differentiation.

54stickers
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Hello! I was wondering how I could find the following derivatives from the given function using Jacobian determinants.

f(u,v) = 0

u = lx + my + nz

v = x^{2} + y^{2} + z^{2}

\frac{∂z}{∂x} = ? (I believe y is constant, but the problem does not specify)

\frac{∂z}{∂y} = ? (I believe x is constant, but the problem does not specify)

I tried setting up the jacobian this way (failed):

\frac{∂z}{∂x} = -\frac{\frac{∂(u,v)}{∂(x,y)}}{\frac{∂(u,v)}{∂(z,y)}}

\frac{∂z}{∂y} = -\frac{\frac{∂(u,v)}{∂(y,x)}}{\frac{∂(u,v)}{∂(z,x)}}
 
Last edited:
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Hello 54stickers and welcome to the forums.

Are you familiar with the chain rule and implicit differentiation? It would probably be a lot better for your understanding if you used these from first principles.

If you are given some identities to work with that are more developed than having to use first principles, you should also point these out on your end.
 
I am familiar with chain rule and implicit differentiation, but I don't know how to go about that approach either.

also, what do you mean by 'first principles'?
 
Pretty much in this context, first principles means the chain rule and other similar rules (like implicit differentiation). I don't mean deriving everything from limits (which is one possible interpretation of first principles and I think its a good thing to clear up any misconceptions).

If you know these basic rules, you should be able to derive any necessary results that are required, even if they relate to multivariable problems (including partial derivatives).
 

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