Increasing the Range of Howitzers

[chemisthypnos]

I think that the range of a howitzer be increased simply by adding more explosive propellant. Why is this not used? I would think that this would be a straightforward way to increase the gun's effective range. Any ideas?

 

[berkeman]

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d3/6e/3d/d36e3d20190fe6c218ab092bbbf39dbf.jpg

 

[chemisthypnos]

If the barrel would become too damaged, why don't they just make the walls of the barrel thicker?

 

[boneh3ad]

At some point the weight and expense of everything becomes prohibitive. In theory you could launch a howitzer shell with a nuclear bomb and you'd probably send it darn near into space, but is that really worth it?

Instead, efforts to increase range have focused more on adding things like onboard propulsion and lifting surfaces like fins that allow it to glide and maneuver on the way back down.

 

[anorlunda]

Don't you think that has been thought of before? They tried.

The modern research on long range guns is focused on rail guns, which can shoot much longer range than a cannon with no barrel at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

 

[DaveE]

Systems, like artillery, are usually designed to meet multiple performance requirements simultaneously (cost, weight, range, etc.). You can seldom make simple assumptions about optimization of one variable in the design process by only considering a single effect.

Look at this picture of a WW2 battleship and ask yourself "Why aren't the guns all the same type?"

 

[Baluncore]

I think that the range of a howitzer be increased simply by adding more explosive propellant.

The "Lyman-Haskell multi-charge gun" increased the amount of explosives by having several separate charges in combustion chambers along the barrel. That was the first of several attempts that included the v3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon

The limit to what has been done is probably HARP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP

 

[trurle]

I think that the range of a howitzer be increased simply by adding more explosive propellant. Why is this not used? I would think that this would be a straightforward way to increase the gun's effective range. Any ideas?

The historical concept of long-range howitzer is called "gun-howitzer". In modern military, most of heavy howitzers are "gun-howitzers" - and their range for base bleed rounds reach 40km. Therefore, statement "Why is this not used?" is incorrect.
For range extension past ~60km, recipe "add more propellant" do not work because the necessary muzzle velocity become comparable with the speed of molecules in propelling gas. Therefore, pressure on base of (shell) drops sharply.

 

[chemisthypnos]

The historical concept of long-range howitzer is called "gun-howitzer". In modern military, most of heavy howitzers are "gun-howitzers" - and their range for base bleed rounds reach 40km. Therefore, statement "Why is this not used?" is incorrect.
For range extension past ~60km, recipe "add more propellant" do not work because the necessary muzzle velocity become comparable with the speed of molecules in propelling gas. Therefore, pressure on base of (shell) drops sharply.

Thank you all for bringing your unique perspectives to this discussion. I have found them all to be most informative. Trurle, you are saying that even if more propellant were to be added, it would not benefit the muzzle velocity past a range of 60 km or so?

 

[cjl]

As trurle mentioned, at some point, there's a limit to range simply because no matter how much propellant you add, the muzzle velocity is limited to approximately the sound speed in the propelling gas (which is much faster than the sound speed in the ambient atmosphere due to the high temperature inside the barrel). Once the projectile reaches this speed, the gas behind it cannot propel it any faster because it's moving as fast as the gas would be if it were just free expanding down the barrel (this isn't exactly the sound speed in the gas, but it's close enough).

The solution to this is to either use propellants with higher molecular velocity in their products (which, functionally, means finding an explosive with lighter mean molecular weight in the products), or to use more complex designs such as the "light gas gun", but we're already basically using the best propellant mix for our considerations of manufacturability, stability/storability, and performance. Light gas guns aren't feasible due to their complexity and the multiple additional components needed (and their much larger size). In addition, to reach these very high velocities, a very long barrel is needed, which hinders the usability of the weapon and makes it far more cumbersome to transport.

Because of these considerations, we've basically settled on ~40km as the maximum reasonable range for howitzers, and beyond that, it's more worthwhile to just switch to rocket artillery rather than trying to further increase the range of guns. That having been said, it is technically possible to exceed 100km range with a gun, it just requires a very large gun, both in the mass of fired projectiles (in order to minimize the effect of air drag) and in length (in order to achieve very high muzzle velocities). You can see this with the German Paris Gun from WWI, which was absolutely massive, despite only being a slightly larger caliber than more modern artillery, due to the incredibly long barrel required to hit the high muzzle velocity needed to have that kind of range. Compare that to more modern rocket artillery that fits on the back of a truck and still is able to achieve over twice the range of even this extreme example.

 

[trurle]

Trurle, you are saying that even if more propellant were to be added, it would not benefit the muzzle velocity past a range of 60 km or so?

Yes, correct.

 

[boneh3ad]

The solution to this is to either use propellants with higher molecular velocity in their products (which, functionally, means finding an explosive with lighter mean molecular weight in the products), or to use more complex designs such as the "light gas gun", but we're already basically using the best propellant mix for our considerations of manufacturability, stability/storability, and performance. Light gas guns aren't feasible due to their complexity and the multiple additional components needed (and their much larger size). In addition, to reach these very high velocities, a very long barrel is needed, which hinders the usability of the weapon and makes it far more cumbersome to transport.

Consider that the G range light gas gun at AEDC, which is the largest continuously operated in the US, can accelerate a projectile up to 7 km/s but it maxes out at an 8 inch projectile and usually operates with something closer to 4 inches. This requires a barrel that is 100+ feet long and uses fun and safe gases like hydrogen. It's a really flipping cool facility, though. Everyone should definitely go look it up.

Because of these considerations, we've basically settled on ~40km as the maximum reasonable range for howitzers, and beyond that, it's more worthwhile to just switch to rocket artillery rather than trying to further increase the range of guns. That having been said, it is technically possible to exceed 100km range with a gun, it just requires a very large gun, both in the mass of fired projectiles (in order to minimize the effect of air drag) and in length (in order to achieve very high muzzle velocities). You can see this with the German Paris Gun from WWI, which was absolutely massive, despite only being a slightly larger caliber than more modern artillery, due to the incredibly long barrel required to hit the high muzzle velocity needed to have that kind of range. Compare that to more modern rocket artillery that fits on the back of a truck and still is able to achieve over twice the range of even this extreme example.

You could also try this: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...rtillery-shell-and-it-could-be-a-game-changer

 

[Drakkith]

I think that the range of a howitzer be increased simply by adding more explosive propellant. Why is this not used? I would think that this would be a straightforward way to increase the gun's effective range. Any ideas?

In addition to what's already been said, remember that increasing the range of a gun does not necessarily increase its effective range. Placing an unguided projectile on-target is difficult, and only gets more so as the range increases. So even if you could increase the range of a projectile by simply increasing the propellant, you may find that your accuracy has decreased far too much for the gun to be useful at that range.

Also, adding propellant increases the weight and size of the shells (or the number of bagged propellant charges used), which reduces the number of rounds a gun/battery/ship is able to carry at once, and also costs more per round. So if you're not confident that your guns can accurately fire out beyond a certain distance then you're probably better off reducing the propellant so you can have more rounds to fire.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I was about to make a similar comment to Drakkith. Being able to miss at increased range is not so effective.

 

[chemisthypnos]

Those are very good points, everyone. If I may ask another question, does the current quantity of propellant reach the speed of sound of that gas at the elevated temperature of its ignition? If so, then adding additional propellant would be pointless.

 

[cjl]

Most current guns operate at a muzzle velocity of around half of what they would be capable of based on that limit. With normal propellants, that limit is ~5000-6000 ft/s, but muzzle velocities around 3000 ft/s are more common, for the other practical reasons mentioned above (also, at very high velocities, barrel wear becomes an increasing concern).

 

[Drakkith]

Those are very good points, everyone. If I may ask another question, does the current quantity of propellant reach the speed of sound of that gas at the elevated temperature of its ignition? If so, then adding additional propellant would be pointless.

It's really about the speed of the projectile, as the gas can't expand down the barrel faster than the projectile is moving. In any case, the answer is no, not in the vast majority of guns, especially for artillery and small arms. You typically need very long barrels and lightweight projectiles to reach the maximum possible muzzle velocity, both of which are not particularly suited for weapons of war. Longer barrels mean heavier guns while lightweight shells have greatly reduced explosive payload, penetration capability, and may have poorer ballistics. The only real exceptions might be anti-tank weapons that rely on pure kinetic energy to inflict their damage.

Wikipedia shows that the Ordnance QF 17-pounder anti-tank gun had a muzzle velocity of 3950 ft/s for its APDS (Armour-piercing discarding sabot) ammunition and its successor, the QF 20, approached 4700 ft/s. This appears to be much higher than other types of ammunition, especially for non-anti-tank weapons. As a comparison, the HE round from the QF 17 has a muzzle velocity of about 2900 ft/s (1975 ft/s for the QF 20) and the L118 howitzer, a lightweight towed artillery piece, is around 2320 ft/s.

A quick look at a dozen or so different artillery pieces showed me that the muzzle velocities occupied a range between around 1,000 to 2300 ft/s for howitzers and other similar types of artillery pieces.

 

[Baluncore]

To avoid destroying the gun, the propellant charge is designed to burn at a limited rate, while the explosive shell is designed to detonate at the maximum possible rate. When a gun barrel bursts, the material bulges or splits along the barrel because the hoop stress due to internal pressure is twice the elongation stress.

Regarding the picture of a burst gun in post #2. It looks to me like a high explosive shell in the gun detonated prematurely, maybe an instant after the gun propellant was fired. That would explain the position of the damage and the unusual character of the fracture.

The barrels of the biggest naval guns were built up by shrinking progressively larger steel tubes onto the inner liner. By crushing the inner liner, the internal gas pressure could be doubled.

The “Paris Gun”, and other long-range guns where the target was a large civilian area, only needed crude accuracy as they were terror weapons.

 

[Tom.G]

Slightly off subject at the other end of the size range.

Having grown up living in a rural area, I was familiar with .22 caliber rifles. If you used 22LR ammunition (LR = Long Rifle cartridge) you could here hear the supersonic shock until the round hit something.

Being curious, I just asked Google about the muzzle velocity and found that the current high-tech approach is a round made of a polymer and Copper dust. It's a hollow-point that travels at 1850fps, roughly mach 1.7.

The general warning on the several decades old technology was "Lethal at 1 mile."

https://www.google.com/search?&q=highest+muzzle+velocity+.22lr

Cheers,
Tom

 

[cjl]

Worth mentioning that .22LR is actually pretty low velocity as rifle rounds go. The fastest current 22 ammunition (that I'm aware of) is the 220 Swift, which can achieve over 4200 ft/s.

 

[berkeman]

If you used 22LR ammunition (LR = Long Rifle cartridge) you could here hear the supersonic shock until the round hit something.

Yeah, I've had .22 rounds "crack" by me a couple times when hunting as a teenager (when somebody else in the hunting group didn't realize where you were). Pretty un-nerving...

 

[gary350]

I did long range target shooting years ago with a 300 Winchester magnum rifle there is more to it than adding more propellant. Gun barrel & receiver are engineered to handle a certain amount of psi in the chamber. If you exceed the chamber psi the gun explodes. Typical way to increase artillery range is replace gun barrel with a longer gun barrel or add an extension to the original gun barrel.

Next you use a different propellant that burns slower. Assume the original gun barrel was 10 ft long and propellant burns 90% of the gun barrel length. Propellant burns up in 9 ft to get projectile up to full speed 3600 ft per second. If new gun barrel is 15 ft long propellent needs to have projectile up to full speed in 14 ft. A 20% more slower burning propeller is uses so not to explode the gun barrel psi rating the slow propellant burns like a hard push not like a BIG hammer with the other propellant. PSI inside the gun barrel remains the same but propellant burns for several micro seconds longer this gives the propellant more time to get the projectile up to a fastest speed in a distance of 14 ft. Assume projectile speed is increased to 4300 ft per second this is 19.44% faster than before. Maximum artillery range is shot at a 45 degree angle if the original gun could shoot 10 miles the new gun will shoot 11.94 miles.

Factory load rifle bullets propellant burns up in 14" of the 28" barrel length that is why recoil hammers your shoulder so hard. I reloaded my own bullets using a slower powder that burned 26" of the 28" barrel length. Gun recoil was less painful on my shoulder than before. I put lead in the stock to make total gun weight 8 lbs. I changed to a 4 power scope. I tested several shape bullets and several weight bullets. 150 grain bullets pick up speed quick but loose speed quick too. 180 grain bullets increase speed slower but heaver bullets maintain speed longer but gravity pulls them down sooner. 170, 165, 160 grain bullets were all tested for best accuracy and range. As it turned out 165 grain was best. Each projectile needs to be inspected for scratches & tiny dents.

I zeroed my scope at 200 yard, bullet shot 1" low at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, 1" low at 300 yards, 2" low at 400 yards, 4" low at 500 yards. I could shoot anything I could see very easy up to 1/2 mile. I use to fill 100 empty soft drink bottles with water and shoot all 100 bottles and not miss from 1/4 mile. 1/2 mile was a tiny bit harder to do. With a tiny bit more practice targets 1 mile away are not hard to hit. Long range shots you need to consider wind speed and Earth rotation it takes the bullet 1.6 seconds to go 1 mile.

If you want to do some very challenging target shooting put a high power rifle scope on a pellet rifle gun has a very good range of 100 ft, 125 ft is harder, bullet drops fast after 150 ft, if you can hit targets at 200 ft targets you are doing very good.

 

[gary350]

Germany developed big guns during WWI and used the same big guns during WWII and made many improvements. Japan made the largest big gun for battle ships 2500 lb projectile had a range of 30 miles. German battle ships shot 2000 lb projectiles with a range of about 25 miles. Rail guns had a range of 20 to 30 miles. Later in WWII Germany experimented with lighter weight projectiles and reached a range of 75 to 128 miles with rail guns. During WWII Germany developed a big gun barrel 200 ft long but before it could be used the facility was bombed and destroyed.

After the war USA did research with the 200 ft big guns and decided it was not practical it could put a bullet in orbit around Earth and shoot bullets 2500 miles but the gun barrel was stationary and only shot bullets in one direction. The 200 ft long gun barrels were mounting on the side of steep hills to fire projectiles at a certain town 1000+ miles away. Germany put several 200 ft long gun barrels in 45 degree angle tunnels down in the ground it would take a gun crew of about 2000 men to fire and maintain those guns.

Airplanes and cruise missiles make all big guns useless. The 200 ft long gun barrel used about 10 propellant charges they all went off in 1,2,3,4, order very fast to help increase the projectile speed. Modern day artillery has rocket assisted projectiles and GPS guided projectiles that can shoot over mountains turn around 180 degrees and hit objects on the back side of the mountain and shoot right down the entrance hole of a cave. If you want to learn first hand about artillery join the military and sign up for mobile artillery.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Japan made the largest big gun for battle ships 2500 lb projectile had a range of 30 miles.

For all the good it did them. One set of these guns is at the bottom of the Sibuyan Sea, and the other is at the bottom of the East China Sea.

 

[chemisthypnos]

Thank you all for your perspectives. You have all done a great job in helping me to understand this phenomena better.

 

[Brocklion]

A consideration that I have not seen mentioned is useful life of the barrel. At some point the gun becomes less accurate because of wear on the barrel and the gun should be removed from service to have its barrel replaced or refurbished. Detailed records of use of the gun are kept in order to determine when service is needed but, in general, the bigger the charge the more wear is counted and the sooner refurbishment is called for.

 

[Hornbein]

A consideration that I have not seen mentioned is useful life of the barrel. At some point the gun becomes less accurate because of wear on the barrel and the gun should be removed from service to have its barrel replaced or refurbished. Detailed records of use of the gun are kept in order to determine when service is needed but, in general, the bigger the charge the more wear is counted and the sooner refurbishment is called for.

The World War One Paris siege gun had to have its barrel replaced frequently. Every ten shots?

 

[gary350]

WWI Paris gun the original bullet wt was 234 lbs range was 65 miles. Later Germany make several more lighter weight bullets. Each lighter weight bullet traveled farter, 75 miles, 85, miles, 90 miles, 100 miles, 125 miles. I have forgotten a lot of this info I think the 75 lb bullet went 125 miles. Most artillery max range is with gun barrel at 45 degrees but Paris gun max range was at 55 degree barrel angle. Bullet went up to a crazy height of about 60 miles before it started coming down. The gun barrel was good for about 200 shots. Germans learned it was easier to shoot larger diameter bullets than to change the warn out gun barrel. It took the 75 lb bullet about 12 minutes to travel 125 miles.

There are amazing videos on YouTube. Battle ship big guns were the most amazing they shood a 3000 lb bullet 24 miles. Video taken from the German battle ship shows the bullet in the air for about 20 seconds before it hits the target. B52 bombers show videos of the bullets coming up 5 miles bullets look like they are floating up it looks so strange as the bullets get closer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Gun

 

[Drakkith]

WWI Paris gun the original bullet wt was 234 lbs range was 65 miles.

Muzzle velocity of 5400 ft/s! That's absurd! No wonder it had such a long range, especially for an 8 to 9inch shell. I guess that's what a barrel length of 100 calibers will do!

For comparison, the 16" 50-caliber Mk7 guns on the Iowa class battleships threw a high explosive HC Mk 13 shell at only 2690 ft/s at most, reaching out to a maximum range of 38,000 meters (23.6 miles).

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php

 

[Melbourne Guy]

180 grain bullets increase speed slower but heaver bullets maintain speed longer but gravity pulls them down sooner.

Does gravity work like that, @gary350? I thought things fall at the same rate, irrespective of their mass, so wouldn't it be some other factor reducing their range (if that's the outcome, I think that's what you're saying)?