Infinite energy and conservation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of infinite energy, conservation of energy, and the behavior of particles and magnetic fields. Participants explore whether the perpetual motion of particles and the nature of magnetic fields challenge the conservation laws in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the perpetual motion of a magnet's field implies infinite energy, questioning the conservation of energy.
  • Another participant counters that a finite magnetic field has a finite energy density and that inertia allows particles to continue moving without requiring energy.
  • There is a discussion about the annihilation of particles and anti-particles, with one participant proposing that they may be converted into unknown forms of energy, such as dark matter.
  • Some participants assert that matter is never destroyed, leading to the idea that energy must come from an unknown source.
  • One participant explains that energy conservation accounts for why particles remain in motion, emphasizing that no external force is needed to maintain constant speed.
  • Another participant questions the idea of infinite movement within a finite magnetic field, prompting further clarification on the nature of energy and motion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of perpetual motion and the conservation of energy, with no consensus reached on whether these concepts violate established laws of physics.

Contextual Notes

Participants exhibit varying levels of understanding regarding the definitions and implications of energy and motion, leading to potential misunderstandings about conservation laws.

science_rules
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doesnt the fact that a magnet's field going from one end to another perpetually, constitute infinite energy?
also, don't particles disobey the conservation law because where do particles get their energy from? particles are always moving. they never stop. but why is matter only destroyed if a particle and anti-particle smash into one another? maybe we think they are annhilated, but something else happens. maybe they are converted into something we can't analyze yet and don't know about? dark matter or something?
doesnt the very fact that matter can't be destroyed-atoms keep going and going, their energy keeps going around in the world, making things move all the time in various ways, and that light photons go on forever, disobey the conservation law because these things shouldn't get their infinite energy from nothing? since particles and light photons are moving all the time, they should be getting their energy from something.

sure, matter always changes from one kind to another, but as far as i know, matter is never destroyed. then doesn't that mean things must be getting their energy from something we don't know about? and what about the energy from that? and on and on. and the fact that light particles will keep going and going, even if it is diverted by something, it doesn't stop-it just moves in a different direction. its energy is perpetual. light energy is perpetual. doesn't that violate the conservation law?
 
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science_rules said:
doesnt the fact that a magnet's field going from one end to another perpetually, constitute infinite energy?
No, a finite magnetic field has a finite energy density.
science_rules said:
also, don't particles disobey the conservation law because where do particles get their energy from? particles are always moving. they never stop.
It doesn't take energy to continue to move. That is called inertia.
science_rules said:
but why is matter only destroyed if a particle and anti-particle smash into one another? maybe we think they are annhilated, but something else happens. maybe they are converted into something we can't analyze yet and don't know about? dark matter or something?
They are converted into something we can analyze easily: light.
science_rules said:
doesnt the very fact that matter can't be destroyed-atoms keep going and going, their energy keeps going around in the world, making things move all the time in various ways, and that light photons go on forever, disobey the conservation law because these things shouldn't get their infinite energy from nothing? since particles and light photons are moving all the time, they should be getting their energy from something.
Again, it doesn't take energy to continue moving.
science_rules said:
sure, matter always changes from one kind to another, but as far as i know, matter is never destroyed.
I don't understand your statement here when just above you mentioned matter/anti-matter anhilation.
science_rules said:
then doesn't that mean things must be getting their energy from something we don't know about? and what about the energy from that? and on and on. and the fact that light particles will keep going and going, even if it is diverted by something, it doesn't stop-it just moves in a different direction. its energy is perpetual. light energy is perpetual. doesn't that violate the conservation law?
No, you just have a small misunderstanding of what energy is and what the conservation of energy means.

Energy is the capacity to do work. Work is a force times a distance. The conservation of energy basically states that the change in the energy of a body is equal to the work done on the body. If your force is zero your work is zero and so your change in energy is zero regardless of the distance travelled. So a particle in motion does not require extra energy in order to remain in motion because by Newton's first law it does not require any force to remain in motion.
 
In fact, the OP should realize that conservation of energy actually explains WHY particles remain in motion in the absence of any external influences. Once a particle has some kinetic energy (which is proportional to the square of its speed), it will continue to move at that speed. It's not just going to suddenly stop...that would mean it had somehow inexplicably lost its kinetic energy and energy conservation would have been violated.
 
but DaleSpam, isn't there constant(infinite) movement of particles in a finite magnetic field?
 
Again, it doesn't require energy to keep moving at a constant speed.
 

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