Integration by Parts, 1/x dillema

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the integration of the function \(\frac{1}{x}\) and the apparent paradox that arises when applying integration by parts. Participants explore the implications of indefinite versus definite integrals and the assumptions involved in the integration process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that the integral \(\int\frac{1}{x}(dx)\) equals \(\ln x + c\), but applying integration by parts leads to a contradictory equation \(0=1\).
  • Another participant suggests that the confusion may stem from the treatment of constants in integration by parts, proposing that the constant term could lead to \(1 + c = 0\), although they express uncertainty about this reasoning.
  • A different participant challenges the original poster to provide more details about their calculation, hinting that the integration by parts should not lead to a paradox if done correctly.
  • One participant emphasizes that they are not using definite integrals, which may be relevant to the confusion.
  • Another participant introduces the idea that indefinite integrals are shorthand for definite integrals, suggesting that this perspective could resolve the paradox.
  • One participant advises understanding the derivation of the integration by parts formula to clarify the issue, indicating that the misunderstanding may lie in the application of the formula.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of indefinite integrals and the application of integration by parts, with no consensus reached on the source of the paradox or the correct approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the definitions and assumptions behind integration, particularly regarding the treatment of constants and the distinction between definite and indefinite integrals.

erjkism
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the answer to [tex]\int\frac{1}{x}(dx)[/tex] is lnx +c. but if you do it with integration by parts, you end up with

[tex]\int\frac{1}{x}(dx)[/tex] = 1 + [tex]\int\frac{1}{x}(dx)[/tex]

which comes to 0=1. why does this happen?
 
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The derivation of integration by parts comes from the product rule so the (uv) term is actually [tex]\int(uv)'[/tex]. The constant from this integration is usually assumed to be combined with the constant from the other integral, but since the other integrals canceled out we still have a constant term 1 + c = 0.

Though, this is just a guess, and I could be completely wrong.
 
I don't think it's possible to tell what you did wrong unless you give more details of your calculation. Did you start with something like this

[tex] \frac{1}{x} = \frac{1}{x} (Dx) = D\Big(\frac{1}{x}x\Big) - \Big(D\frac{1}{x}\Big)x = D\Big(\frac{1}{x}x\Big)+\frac{1}{x}?[/tex]

But I'm not ending up into any paradox if I perform the integration by parts with this. You just get

[tex] \int_a^b \frac{1}{x}dx = \frac{b}{b} - \frac{a}{a} + \int_a^b\frac{1}{x}dx.[/tex]
 
im not using a definite integral in my calculation. there aren't any limits "a" and "b"
 
Ah, but it's a trick! There is really no such thing as an indefinite integral. The notation

[tex]\int f(x) \; dx[/tex]

is really just shorthand for

[tex]\int_a^x f(t) \; dt[/tex]

for some arbitrary constant a. If you write it out like this, so that a is consistent, then you will resolve the paradox.

Alternatively, you could be absolutely pedantic about your arbitrary constant C:

[tex]\int \left( \frac{d}{dx} f(x) \right) dx = f(x) + C[/tex]

and you'll note that it is certainly true that

0 = 1 + C

for some C.
 
erjkism said:
im not using a definite integral in my calculation. there aren't any limits "a" and "b"

In a sense, the integral functions are definite integrals too. If F(x) is chosen so that its derivative is f(x), then it is

[tex] F(x) = \int_{x_0}^x f(u) du[/tex]

with some [itex]x_0[/itex].

Your problem seems to be, that you are using a formula

[tex] \int fg' dx = fg - \int f'g dx[/tex]

without knowing what it means. My advice is that try to understand how the formula is derived, and everything should get clearer.

It seems somebody was faster than me.
 
Last edited:

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