Integration by Substitution Using Infinite Sums

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of integration by substitution, particularly using infinite sums to understand the validity of the substitution process. Participants explore the relationship between the chain rule and integration, and how substitution can be justified through infinitesimal changes in variables.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a proof from Wikipedia regarding integration by substitution but notes that it does not address certain conditions involving derivatives and functions.
  • Another participant argues that substitution is valid because it follows from the chain rule for derivatives, providing a detailed explanation of integrating both sides of the derivative equation.
  • A participant suggests that by defining a new variable, they can manipulate the differential notation to facilitate integration, questioning the nature of the substitution of differentials.
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of differentials and their role in substitution, with one participant expressing confusion about why dx can be substituted rather than merely serving as a notation.
  • Another participant supports the idea that the presence of a derivative allows for the substitution of differentials, suggesting that this simplifies the integral.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the justification of substitution in integration, with some agreeing on the role of the chain rule while others raise questions about the nature of differentials. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the deeper implications of these substitutions.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the foundational aspects of substitution and the interpretation of differentials, indicating that there are assumptions and definitions that may not be fully articulated or agreed upon.

Conductivity
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I have seen the wikipedia's proof which can be found here: https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Integration_by_Substitution
However sometimes, we have problems where you have a ##d(x)## times ## f(g(x))## times g prime of x where we use substitution and it works but the proof didn't prove this condition..

I was wondering if you can prove why it works through infinite sums like for example
##( f(g(x)) g^{'}(x) dx + f(g(x+dx)) g^{'}(x+dx) dx + ... ) ##
If I can change that to this
##( f(y) dy + f(y+dy) dy + ... ## where you set y = g(x)
It would statisfy me.. But is it possible to prove it using this?
 
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Substitution works because the chain rule for derivative works:

## [f(g(x))]'=f'(g(x))g'(x) ##

if you integrate both sides, you will obtain

## \int [f(g(x))]' dx=\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx ##

that is the same of ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx = f(g(x)) + c ## because the integral is the antiderivation so ## \int [f(g(x))]' dx=f(g(x))+c##. This formally can be done substituting in the integral ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx## the function ## g(x)=t## so ##g'(x)dx=dt## (we do a substitution on differentials) differentiating and ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx=\int f'(t)dt=f(t)+c##, returning in ##g## we have: ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx=f(g(x))+c##.

Ssnow
 
Ssnow said:
Substitution works because the chain rule for derivative works:

## [f(g(x))]'=f'(g(x))g'(x) ##

if you integrate both sides, you will obtain

## \int [f(g(x))]' dx=\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx ##

that is the same of ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx = f(g(x)) + c ## because the integral is the antiderivation so ## \int [f(g(x))]' dx=f(g(x))+c##. This formally can be done substituting in the integral ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx## the function ## g(x)=t## so ##g'(x)dx=dt## (we do a substitution on differentials) differentiating and ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx=\int f'(t)dt=f(t)+c##, returning in ##g## we have: ##\int f'(g(x))g'(x) dx=f(g(x))+c##.

Ssnow
Oh, Can I think of it as this?
## [f(g(x))]'=f'(g(x))g'(x) ##
This is just df/dx So If I make a variable called u= g(x) and then du/dx = g(x) now flipping this over gives you dx/du = 1/g(x) and we can then multiply it to df/dx to get df/du by chain rule and then we integrate with respect to u.

What bothers me is: Why is dx substitute-able rather than a notation to let us know what we are integrating in respect to?
I know that it refers to something infinitesimal and the integration just means the infinite sums of f(x) multiplied by dx which would make sense in these cases
du/dx = 1/u
u du = 1 dx
##\int u du = \int 1 dx ##

Now I can apply the same logic to the substitution rule. I can assign a value u and say dx = du/g'(x) which then substitute it and integrate to get the infinite sum of ## \int f(u) du ## But I still prefer the first argument.

Excuse me if I am talking nonsense just getting started at integration
 
Conductivity said:
Oh, Can I think of it as this?
[f(g(x))]′=f′(g(x))g′(x) [f(g(x))]'=f'(g(x))g'(x)
This is just df/dx So If I make a variable called u= g(x) and then du/dx = g(x) now flipping this over gives you dx/du = 1/g(x) and we can then multiply it to df/dx to get df/du by chain rule and then we integrate with respect to u.

Yes.

Conductivity said:
Why is dx substitute-able rather than a notation to let us know what we are integrating in respect to?

I don't know if can help but the fact is that the presence of derivative inside the integral permit you to substitute ''the differential'', that is the espression ##g'(x)dx## (that you can see as an ''incremental quantity'' ) with another much simpler as ##du##. Consequence of this: your integral will be simpler then the first (this is similar to the integration by part rule)

Conductivity said:
Excuse me if I am talking nonsense just getting started at integration

No absolutely, your talk is perfectly reasonable :smile:.

Ssnow
 

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