Internal Energy Changes in Various Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the internal energy changes in various systems, specifically examining scenarios involving a clay ball, exothermic reactions, and the implications of constant volume conditions. Participants explore the relationship between kinetic energy, work, and internal energy in both macroscopic and chemical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how macroscopic objects like a clay ball can have an increase in internal energy, particularly in the context of kinetic and potential energy.
  • There is a discussion about whether heat is added or removed in an exothermic reaction at constant volume, with some suggesting that q is positive and others arguing it is negative.
  • One participant proposes that if a falling ball of clay deforms without heat transfer, the ground does work on the clay, raising questions about the sign of ΔU.
  • Another participant asserts that if the volume remains constant during an exothermic reaction, then ΔU would be positive, suggesting heat is added to the system.
  • Contrastingly, another participant argues that exothermic reactions imply heat is removed from the system, leading to a negative ΔU.
  • There is a contention regarding whether the clay ball gets hotter or colder upon impact, with some suggesting it gets hotter due to kinetic energy conversion, while others argue that ΔU must be negative in this case.
  • One participant concludes that since both q and w are zero in the clay scenario, ΔU must equal -ΔKE, leading to a positive change in internal energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the signs of q and ΔU in exothermic reactions and the implications of kinetic energy on internal energy changes. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the effects of these scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of the first law of thermodynamics and the conditions under which internal energy changes occur. The discussion highlights dependencies on assumptions about heat transfer and work done in different systems.

brake4country
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Homework Statement


In which of the following cases does the internal energy of the described system increase:
(I) A clay ball is dropped and sticks to the ground
(II) Hydrogen and oxygen react exothermically to form water
(III) A car is driven at constant speed (consider the effect of air resistance)

Homework Equations


NA

The Attempt at a Solution


When I look at I and III, I think of kinetic energy and potential energy (if elevated). But then when I think of internal energy, I think chemical reactions. How can a macroscopic object such as I and III have an increase in internal energy?
 
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If a chemical reaction is carried out exothermally in a constant volume reactor, does that mean that heat is added to the reactor or that heat is removed form the reactor to return the temperature of products to the original temperature of the reactants? So what is the sign of Q? What does that tell you about the sign of ΔU?

If a falling ball of clay has kinetic energy when it hits the ground and the deformation of the clay takes place without any heat transfer from the clay to its surroundings, does the ground do work to deform the clay? What does that tell you about the sign of ΔU?

Chet
 
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If the volume remains constant when an exothermic reaction takes place, then q would be positive, which means that ΔU would be positive, right? This would mean that heat is added to the system, thus giving the system potential to do work.

KE = W with macroscopic systems, so a ball of clay with kinetic energy has the potential to do work without heat. Please let me know if my logic here is correct. Thanks!
 
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brake4country said:
If the volume remains constant when an exothermic reaction takes place, then q would be positive, which means that ΔU would be positive, right? This would mean that heat is added to the system, thus giving the system potential to do work.
Exothermic means that q is negative. Heat is removed from the system. How much work is actually done by a material in a constant volume reactor? Is ΔU positive or negative?
KE = W with macroscopic systems, so a ball of clay with kinetic energy has the potential to do work without heat. Please let me know if my logic here is correct. Thanks!
The work that the system does on the surroundings is zero, because the displacement of the ground is virtually zero. So the work done by the ground on the clay ball is also zero. Don't forget that, when there is a significant change in kinetic energy, the first law must be modified to ##ΔU+ΔKE=Q-W##. So the kinetic energy gets converted into internal energy. So, is ΔU positive or negative (i.e., does the ball of clay get hotter or colder when it goes splat?)

Chet
 
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Okay, a lot of great questions! So, for the first one, no work is done if the volume remains constant. This is an isovolumetric system. If heat were to go into the system, then it would be endothermic and the q would be positive.

For the second question, conceptually thinking about this I would say that the clay would get hotter due to the kinetic energy that it has upon hitting the ground. This would be similar to an exothermic process where heat is removed from the clay into the surroundings. Is this thinking correct?

Therefore, q is negative then ΔU must be negative also. Correct?
 
brake4country said:
Okay, a lot of great questions! So, for the first one, no work is done if the volume remains constant. This is an isovolumetric system. If heat were to go into the system, then it would be endothermic and the q would be positive.
Right. Since it's exothermic, q is negative.

For the second question, conceptually thinking about this I would say that the clay would get hotter due to the kinetic energy that it has upon hitting the ground. This would be similar to an exothermic process where heat is removed from the clay into the surroundings. Is this thinking correct?
No. q and w for this case are both zero. So, since ##ΔU+ΔKE=q-w##, we are left with ##ΔU=-ΔKE##. The change in kinetic energy of the clay is negative because it is initially moving and then stops. So ##ΔU>0##. The positive change in internal energy of the clay is related to the temperature rise by ##ΔU=mCΔT##. So the temperature also rises.

Chet
 
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