Intuition for Hamilton's Principle

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding Hamilton's Principle and its intuitive implications, particularly why nature appears to select paths that minimize or make stationary the action. Participants explore connections to Fermat's Principle and delve into historical context and quantum interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the intuitive understanding of why action is minimized or made stationary, seeking a common-sense explanation beyond mathematical proofs.
  • Another participant clarifies that the action is not necessarily minimized but is stationary, prompting further inquiry into its relationship with Fermat's Principle.
  • Fermat's Principle is mentioned as stating that light takes the path that minimizes duration, suggesting a potential analogy with action as a functional of path.
  • A participant notes that Hamilton's Principle is considered a fundamental law of dynamics in classical mechanics and hints at a quantum version of "action," although details are not provided.
  • Discussion includes a reference to the Feynman path-integral formulation in quantum theory, which relates to the action and its stationary nature, particularly in the context of macroscopic objects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the action, with some emphasizing its stationary nature rather than minimization. The relationship between action and Fermat's Principle is also explored, but no consensus is reached on the depth of this connection. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the intuitive understanding of action.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the concepts involved, including the mathematical intricacies of the action functional and its implications in both classical and quantum contexts. There are indications of missing assumptions and unresolved connections between the discussed principles.

Sturk200
Messages
168
Reaction score
17
Is there an intuitive way to understand why nature selects the path that minimizes the action? I've seen it proven that the Euler-Lagrange equations are equivalent to Newton's laws (at least in Cartesian coordinates). So I can understand it mathematically. But on a more common-sense level, what the heck is an action, and why is it always minimized or made stationary?

Maybe another way is to pose the question historically. Why did they call it "action"?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Sturk200 said:
But on a more common-sense level, what the heck is an action, and why is it always minimized?

the action is extremum (not minimized) i.e. the value is such that it is stationary.
how this action is related to Fermat's Principle? i do not know but pl. try to find out .
 
drvrm said:
how this action is related to Fermat's Principle? i do not know but pl. try to find out .

Fermat's principle says that light traverses the path that takes the least time. The duration, like the action, is a functional of path, namely the product of the inverse velocity and length element integrated along the path. So Fermat's principle tells you to select the path that minimizes the duration functional. I don't know if there is any further connection.
 
Sturk200 said:
The duration, like the action, is a functional of path, namely the product of the inverse velocity and length element integrated along the path. So Fermat's principle tells you to select the path that minimizes the duration functional. I don't know if there is any further connection.

Somewhere i have read that the Hamilton's Principle or Principle of least action is something like a basic law of dynamics in classical world and a version of "quantum action" have been defined for the quantum dynamics.
Well i do not know in detail but using calculus of variation we used to calculate the least path between two points on a sphereical surface.
you have to dig deeper.
 
That's a very deep question. The only resolution I know is to use the Feynman path-integral in quantum theory, which evaluates the socalled propagator, which is the probability amplitude for a particle starting at ##x'## at time ##t'## and ending at ##x## at time ##t##. Up to a normalization constant it reads
$$U(t,x;t',x')=\int \mathrm{D}p \int_{(t',x')}^{(t,x)} \mathrm{D} x \exp \left (\frac{\mathrm{i}}{2 \pi} S[x,p] \right),$$
where the action functional is given by
$$S[x,p]=\int_{t'}^{t} \mathrm{d} t' [\dot{x} p-H(x,p)].$$
The integral is over all trajectories in phase space where the momentum is totally unconstrained and in position space you always have ##x(t)=x## and ##x(t')=x'##.

Now you can do a formal expansion in powers of ##\hbar##. If the action is rapidly changing the path integral will tend to vanish, because the integrand is a very rapidly oscillating sine/cosine like expression (the exponential with an imaginary argument). Thus the main contribution to the integral shoud be in the region, where the action is stationary under variations of the phase-space trajectory, and this is precisely the trajectory of the classical particle.

For a macroscopic object the approximation to take the leading order of the path integral is very good, because ##\hbar## is very small compared to the typical values of the action of the macroscopic object. That explains why we observe the particle as moving along the classical trajectory, and this explains why it is described as the stationary point of the classical action functional.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K