News Is Anyone Truly in Control Amidst the Ukrainian Crisis?

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The discussion highlights the chaotic situation in Ukraine, questioning who truly controls the protests and the government amidst escalating violence, particularly in Kiev. It notes the deep cultural and political divisions within Ukraine, with significant pro-Russian sentiments in the east and pro-European aspirations in the west. The conversation reflects on the lack of strong U.S. support for the protesters compared to past interventions during the Orange Revolution. Participants express skepticism about the motivations behind the protests, suggesting they may be influenced by foreign interests and local radicals. The overall sentiment is one of uncertainty regarding the future of Ukraine, with concerns about potential power struggles and external influences.
  • #871
nikkkom said:
You remember wrong. USSR ended its occupation of Baltic countries not 60, but merely 20 years ago. Warsaw pact countries too, since they only "technically" weren't ruled by occupation government, but anytime they tried to elect somebody "wrong", Russian tanks rolled in. Czech Republic, 1968. Rings any bells?
That's not what I mean -- and maybe I misread who was who in the analogy and we might be on the same side. I'll be more explicit:

It is often said that Russians legitimately fear invasion from Europe due to a long history of it. But that threat ended and reversed after WWII. The USSR immediately established itself as the expansionist aggressor. That Russian expansion was knocked-back in the early '90s, but that's not the equivalent of being invaded, nor is it the same as what Russia "fears" today. NATO "expansion" is just the USSR's former subjigants trying to avoid the USSR's resurgence, subjugating them again. There is no two-sided coin or sympathetic Russian history in play today. Russia is an imperialist/expansionist aggressor and NATO is trying (ineffectively) to stop it. Russia is not being threatened in any real way by NATO.

Note: I have to put "fears" and "expansion" in quotes because they are being misused by Russian supporters. This would be a funny joke if people weren't dying over it.
 
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  • #872
Reading a few articles about the new cease fire that was just signed, none of them mentioned any rebel leaders being at the peace talks. So either the articles were incomplete, or they actually weren't there. If they weren't, then is Putin basically openly admitting he has full control over them?
 
  • #873
JonDE said:
Reading a few articles about the new cease fire that was just signed, none of them mentioned any rebel leaders being at the peace talks. So either the articles were incomplete, or they actually weren't there. If they weren't, then is Putin basically openly admitting he has full control over them?
I have read that a delegation of representatives from the rebels was present at the peace talks, but were not of leadership status and had no standing to either reject or accept the peace terms. They were observers only. I seem to recall Putin stating that he does not control the rebels. But I assume he enjoys considerable influence.
 
  • #874
Concerning Russian logic, I would rather suggest The Economist:

As Ukraine suffers, it is time to recognise the gravity of the Russian threat—and to counter it
Feb 14th 2015

HE IS ridiculed for his mendacity and ostracised by his peers. He presides over a free-falling currency and a rapidly shrinking economy. International sanctions stop his kleptocratic friends from holidaying in their ill-gotten Mediterranean villas. Judged against the objectives Vladimir Putin purported to set on inheriting Russia’s presidency 15 years ago—prosperity, the rule of law, westward integration—regarding him as a success might seem bleakly comical.

But those are no longer his goals, if they ever really were. Look at the world from his perspective, and Mr Putin is winning. For all his enemies’ machinations, he remains the Kremlin’s undisputed master. He has a throttlehold on Ukraine, a grip this week’s brittle agreement in Minsk has not eased. Domesticating Ukraine through his routine tactics of threats and bribery was his first preference, but the invasion has had side benefits. It has demonstrated the costs of insubordination to Russians; and, since he thinks Ukraine’s government is merely a puppet of the West (the supposed will of its people being, to his ultracynical mind, merely a cover for Western intrigues), the conflict has usefully shown who is boss in Russia’s backyard. Best of all, it has sown discord among Mr Putin’s adversaries: among Europeans, and between them and America.His overarching aim is to divide and neuter that alliance, fracture its collective approach to security, and resist and roll back its advances. From his tantrums over the Middle East to his invasion of Georgia and multiple misadventures in Ukraine, Mr Putin has sometimes seemed to stumble into accidental disputes with the West, driven by a paranoid fear of encirclement. In hindsight it seems that, given his outlook, confrontation may have been inevitable. Either way, the contest he insists on can no longer be dodged. It did not begin in poor Ukraine and will not end there. Prevailing will require far more resolve than Western leaders have so far mustered.

What the Kremlin wants
Last year Mr Putin lopped off Crimea, redrawing Europe’s map by force. The war he hallucinated into reality in eastern Ukraine has killed thousands. Even if the ceasefire scheduled for February 15th holds (unlikely, on past form), he seems certain to get what he wants there: a wretched little quasi-state in the Donbas, which he can use to stall and warp Ukraine’s development. Yet these incursions are only his latest bid to bludgeon former Soviet states into submission, whether through energy blackmail, trade embargoes or war. For Mr Putin the only good neighbour is a weak one; vassals are better than allies. Only the wilfully blind would think his revanchism has been sated. Sooner or later it may encompass the Baltic states—members of both the European Union and NATO, and home to Russian minorities of the kind he pledges to “protect”.

The EU and NATO are Mr Putin’s ultimate targets. To him, Western institutions and values are more threatening than armies. He wants to halt their spread, corrode them from within and, at least on the West’s fragile periphery, supplant them with his own model of governance. In that model, nation-states trump alliances, states are dominated by elites, and those elites can be bought. Here, too, he has enjoyed some success. From France to Greece to Hungary he is cultivating parties on Europe’s far right and left: anyone who might lobby for Russian interests in the EU, or even help to prise the union apart (see article). The biggest target is NATO’s commitment to mutual self-defence. Discredit that—by, for example, staging a pro-Russian uprising in Estonia or Latvia, which other NATO members decline to help quell—and the alliance crumbles.

Mr Putin’s stranglehold on his own country means he has time and freedom for this campaign. As he has amply demonstrated, he has no qualms about sacrificing Russians’ well-being to satisfy his coterie’s greed or to further his geopolitical schemes. He persecutes those who protest. And in the echo chamber his propaganda creates, the nationalism he peddles as a consolation for domestic woes is flourishing.

What is to be done?
The first task for the West is to recognise the problem. Barack Obama has blithely regarded Russia as an awkward regional power, prone to post-imperial spasms but essentially declining. Historians will be amazed that, with Ukraine aflame, the West was still debating whether to eject Russia from the G8. To paraphrase Trotsky, Western leaders may not have been interested in Mr Putin, but Mr Putin was interested in them.

The next step is to craft a response as supple as the onslaught. Part of the trouble is that Mr Putin plays by different rules; indeed, for him, there are no inviolable rules, nor universal values, nor even cast-iron facts (such as who shot down flight MH17). There are only interests. His Russia has graduated from harassing ambassadors and assassinating critics to invasions. This is one of his assets: a readiness to stoop to methods the West cannot emulate without sullying itself.Russian timeline: The road to 2015
The current version of this quandary is whether, if the latest ceasefire fails, to arm Ukraine. Proponents think defensive weapons would inflict a cost on Mr Putin for fighting on. But anyone who doubts his tolerance of mass casualties should recall his war in Chechnya. If arms really are to deter him, the West must be united and ready to match his inevitable escalation with still more powerful weapons (along, eventually, with personnel to operate them). Yet the alliance is split over the idea. Mr Putin portrays the war as a Western provocation: arming Ukraine would turn that from fantasy to something like fact, while letting him expose the limits of Western unity and its lack of resolve—prizes he cherishes. If fresh Russian aggression galvanises the alliance, arming Ukraine will become a more potent threat. Until that point, it would backfire.

A better strategy is to eschew his methods and rely on an asset that he, in turn, cannot match: a way of life that people covet. If that seems wishy-washy beside his tanks, remember that the crisis began with Ukrainians’ desire to tilt towards the EU—and Mr Putin’s determination to stop them. Better than arms, the West must urgently give Ukraine as much aid as it needs to build a state and realize that dream (and as much advice as it takes to ensure the cash is not misspent or stolen). The IMF deal announced on February 12th should be only a start. Mr Putin wants Ukraine to be a lesson in the perils of leaning West. It should instead be an exemplar of the rewards.

Just as urgently, those former Soviet countries that have joined Western institutions must be buttressed and reassured. If the case for sending arms to the Donbas is doubtful, that for basing NATO troops in the Baltics is overwhelming, however loudly Mr Putin squeals. Western leaders must make it clear, to him and their own people, that they will defend their allies, and the alliance—even if the struggle is covert and murky.

And it isn’t only its allies who appreciate the West’s virtues. So do many Russians, including shameless Putinists who denounce the West’s decadence but exploit its schools and stockmarkets. It is long past time for every Russian parliamentarian and senior official to join the sanctions list. Far from being relaxed as, after Minsk, fellow-travellers may suggest, sanctions must be tightened—and sanctions-busting curtailed (see article). In the end, they will prove a stronger lever than weapons.

At the same time, the West should use every available means to help ordinary Russians, including Russian-sympathisers in the Baltics and Ukraine, learn the bloody, venal truth about Mr Putin. It should let them know that Russia, a great nation dragged down a terrible path, will be embraced when it has rulers who treat the world, and their own people, with respect not contempt, however long that takes.

Threat aren't armies that he is afraid of, otherwise he would not flirt so much with Chinese. Threat for his regime would be a moderately successful Ukraine that could inspire his own subjects in ending dictatorial kleptocracy. Of course such imperial logic of turning nearby countries into vassals/failed states tend to backslash. (Think a while why Poland is so pro-American and is willing to support the USA in Middle East, where from practical perspective we have no interests)
 
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  • #875
JonDE said:
Reading a few articles about the new cease fire that was just signed, none of them mentioned any rebel leaders being at the peace talks. So either the articles were incomplete, or they actually weren't there. If they weren't, then is Putin basically openly admitting he has full control over them?

Putin stance is very flexible. I like it the most when his paid trolls accuse Ukrainians of both being neo-nazi and being led by Jews.
 
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  • #877
Excellent article.
West has something Putin can't possibly match: vastly superior economic power.

West can give Ukraine as much money as it needs - and for the West, the needed sums will actually look modest. $100 billion? EU just forgave as much to Greece!

And additionally, West can use these money as a stick - Ukrainian kleptocrats have no one else to turn to. Whatever reforms West demands, they will HAVE TO implement.

It will not be "doing ukrainians' job for them", it will be "helping them": Ukrainian public pushes for reforms as hard as it can, right now.

The only problem, how to make Western bureaucrats to appoint a *competent* team to oversee this project? I have no illusions that Western bureaucracy is an *efficient* mechanism. We just saw how US poured about a trillion dollars into Iraq, with almost no visible results.
 
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  • #878
russ_watters said:
>> His neighbor is not a wife beater. His neighbor has a long history of attacking him...

A long history that ended - even reversed - 60 years ago. The reversal of which is why NATO exists!

It's you who misunderstood my post. "He" in that phrase was Ukraine, not Russia. The "neighbor" is Russia. You seem to understand it as "He" = Russia, "neighbor" = Europe.
 
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  • #879
nikkkom said:
Excellent article.
West has something Putin can't possibly match: vastly superior economic power.

West can give Ukraine as much money as it needs - and for the West, the needed sums will actually look modest. $100 billion? EU just forgave as much to Greece!

And additionally, West can use these money as a stick - Ukrainian kleptocrats have no one else to turn to. Whatever reforms West demands, they will HAVE TO implement.

It will not be "doing ukrainians' job for them", it will be "helping them": Ukrainian public pushes for reforms as hard as it can, right now.

The only problem, how to make Western bureaucrats to appoint a *competent* team to oversee this project? I have no illusions that Western bureaucracy is an *efficient* mechanism. We just saw how US poured about a trillion dollars into Iraq, with almost no visible results.

I consider as quite funny this mechanism of disciplining your politicians. (but to be honest to much smaller extend we use it also in Poland, and have our gov officially explain to EU why our budget deficit is a bit too big)

There are a few differences here. Greece was first given quite a lot of money when it joined the EU in 1981 (technically speaking European Community). It was a political decision, because of communism threat. So a lot of money was taken, but not too much reforms implemented. It was not giving $100 BLN. It was more that those money were already lent a while ago so it was more just officially admitting that part of money is already for sure wasted.

Technically speaking - in case of Greece there was recently used Troika (EU+IMF+ECB). Maybe not the best choice (a bit too preocupied with short term financial results), but good enough.

Because of Greece there is now not too good moment for that. (you know, think about convincing taxpayers to support another such big program, when the previous one do not look like success and more like just drowning their money). But it seems as the best idea right now.
 
  • #880
Separatist commander says can fire on Ukrainian transport hub town despite truce
http://news.yahoo.com/separatist-commander-says-rebels-fire-ukrainian-town-debaltseve-102908674.html
DONETSK (Reuters) - A senior pro-Russian separatist commander said on Sunday that, despite a ceasefire, rebels have the right to fire on the town of Debaltseve in east Ukraine as it is "our territory."
. . .
"Of course we can open fire (on Debaltseve), it is our territory... The territory is inside, it is ours," Eduard Basurin told Reuters by phone, saying that elsewhere separatists were observing the truce.
Um, no!
 
  • #881
Czcibor said:
Because of Greece there is now not too good moment for that. (you know, think about convincing taxpayers to support another such big program, when the previous one do not look like success and more like just drowning their money). But it seems as the best idea right now.

The idea is to NOT give lots of money at once. Give a little (a few billions), and demand specific changes. If changes do not happen, refuse to give more money until they do. Right now, Ukrainian government will have absolutely no choice but to do what is asked of it. Unlike past governments, they can't possibly turn to Russia, you know :) [if they try to do anything like that, they will probably be caught and executed by angry mobs].

Eventually, if this method succeeds, after many installments, total may end up somewhere in 50-100 billion dollars range. It would be well worth it. Losing Ukraine to Russia would create a far bigger threat than Russia currently is.
 
  • #882
By all indications, Ukrainian General Staff continues to display shocking levels of incompetency.
"Almost encirclement" of Debaltsevo slowly goes from bad to worse, but generals neither order them to withdraw nor allow them to respond to shelling which continues right now - you know, "ceasefire"!
 
  • #883
nikkkom said:
The idea is to NOT give lots of money at once. Give a little (a few billions), and demand specific changes. If changes do not happen, refuse to give more money until they do. Right now, Ukrainian government will have absolutely no choice but to do what is asked of it. Unlike past governments, they can't possibly turn to Russia, you know :) [if they try to do anything like that, they will probably be caught and executed by angry mobs].

Eventually, if this method succeeds, after many installments, total may end up somewhere in 50-100 billion dollars range. It would be well worth it. Losing Ukraine to Russia would create a far bigger threat than Russia currently is.

In theory - sounds very reasonable, as something as I would willing sponsor from my tax money.

The main problems:
-The countries that are really nervous, Poland and Balts are clearly neither rich nor big enough to sponsor that on their own.
-The country who as usual would fit the main part of the bill, treats Russian behaviour as disgusting but not as direct threat. From German perspective there is some business to be done with Russia while Russian attempt to vassalize Ukraine seems as limited action.
(think in the following way - if Russia can collapse if the oil prices stay low for a few years, would spending lot's of money to speed that up be so good investment for Germans or countries that are even more far away)
-As usual coordination problem in the EU. We have a bunch of bureaucrats and local politicians with contradicting aims (including those who go to Brussels just to play a drama for audience in their home country) - system works not so bad in normal cases, but stops to a grind when facing any non standard challenge (European Central Bank needed over 6 years to start quantitative easing). The system is highly based on consensus which makes speedy decisions very hard.EDIT: Yes, I know, because of those governance problems the EU should be turned in Imperium Europaeum. ;)
 
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  • #884
Czcibor said:
In theory - sounds very reasonable, as something as I would willing sponsor from my tax money.

The main problems:
-The countries that are really nervous, Poland and Balts are clearly neither rich nor big enough to sponsor that on their own.

Well, so far I did not see a definite evidence that these countries sent any material help more substantial than footwear and clothing. I'm not talking about tanks, but they are not _that_ poor that they can't buy and ship encrypted comm gear, for example?

We appreciate diplomatic support, we really do, but Russia sends MUCH more than that to their stooges.
 
  • #885
nikkkom said:
Well, so far I did not see a definite evidence that these countries sent any material help more substantial than footwear and clothing. I'm not talking about tanks, but they are not _that_ poor that they can't buy and ship encrypted comm gear, for example?

We appreciate diplomatic support, we really do, but Russia sends MUCH more than that to their stooges.
Yes, I also see it as some disgrace that we haven't done that yet.

(of course on the list of what to do should be also stopping boosting demand for Russian gas by subsidizing purchase of natural gas by Ukrainian households; or retreating from Dobalcevo a while ago instead of being encircled there)
 
  • #886
677300_original.jpg


A location which received lots of Grads.
 
  • #887
OSCE observers can't confirm ceasefire violations in Debatsevo, because they can't reach Debaltsevo, because the road is being shelled by separatists.

LOL...
 
  • #888
Battle rages for town where Ukraine rebels reject ceasefire
http://news.yahoo.com/battle-rages-town-where-ukraine-rebels-reject-ceasefire-125913126.html

Ukraine rebels bury dead who fell hours before ceasefire
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels-bury-dead-fell-hours-ceasefire-221600344.html

US urges Russia, rebels to 'immediately' halt Ukraine attacks
http://news.yahoo.com/us-urges-russia-rebels-immediately-halt-ukraine-attacks-223056301.html

Ukraine cease-fire largely holding, Debaltseve still tense
http://news.yahoo.com/both-sides-claim-violations-ukraine-cease-fire-starts-062029016.html

Ukraine says some soldiers taken prisoner in Debaltseve
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-army-rebels-miss-deadline-start-weapons-pullback-072759225.html I'm not sure what EU and US hope to accomplish with talks. It seems that they would accept that Russia walks over Ukraine and take what they want.

Putin urges Ukraine troops to give up Debaltseve
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31511926
 
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  • #889
  • #890
Astronuc said:
I'm not sure what EU and US hope to accomplish with talks. It seems that they would accept that Russia walks over Ukraine and take what they want.
Agreed. The logic seems to be "maybe if we give them whatever they want, they'll agree to stop". I seem to remember them trying that on a previous dictator who was invading and annexing countries in Europe. All it does is send a loud and clear message that he can take whatever he wants and we won't try to stop him.
 
  • #891
Ukraine is looking smaller these days.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27308526

russ_watters said:
Agreed. The logic seems to be "maybe if we give them whatever they want, they'll agree to stop". I seem to remember them trying that on a previous dictator who was invading and annexing countries in Europe. All it does is send a loud and clear message that he can take whatever he wants and we won't try to stop him.
Perhaps the EU and the Obama administration are competing for the 2015 Neville Chamberlain Diplomacy Award.

Ukraine crisis: US warns Russia as UN backs ceasefire deal
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31514295Warn about what?! That we will be very cross with Putin?!
 
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  • #892
Astronuc said:
That we will be very cross with Putin?!
Perhaps, terribly vexed?

 
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  • #893
Listening to BBC radio this morning, it sounds as though the (8000?) Ukrainian forces trapped at the Debaltseve "pocket", lacking resupply of food and ammunition, are either surrendering or pulling out.
 
  • #894
Troops in Debaltseve pocket apparently decided to retreat without command, remembering that on previous occasions General Staff was neither helping besieged units nor ordering retreat.

President now says the retreat was "executed as planned", but I don't believe it's true. He also downplays the losses.

About 100 soldiers are captured, about 50-100 killed (both numbers are very approximate), the rest seem to be finishing pullout.
 
  • #895
Isn't it customary to support ground troops with air power? Does Ukraine have an air force? Do they have helicopters?
 
  • #896
Basically, it's over. PBS chief reporter for foreign affairs Margaret Warner reported this evening that Putin now appears to be in the drivers seat, with Poroshenko and his army now discredited by the disaster at Debaltseve. Warner reported Poroshenko to be on shaky political ground; look for him to be challenged or replaced soon, she hinted. Le Pen in France is said to be calling for acknowledgment of Crimea as Russia. :rolleyes:
 
  • #897
Given the failure of the cease fire, the delivery of US defensive weapons to Ukraine seems more likely than not. I'm curious as to the European opinion on i) the US supply of weapons to Ukraine, and ii) the European supply of weapons to Ukraine.
 
  • #898
Dotini said:
Basically, it's over.
What's over? Partition of Ukraine is over, so that Putin can move on to the next country? Surrender of Europe? Crimea is already Russian.
 
  • #899
mheslep said:
What's over? Partition of Ukraine is over, so that Putin can move on to the next country? Surrender of Europe? Crimea is already Russian.
My guess: The shooting war is over and Ukraine has lost. The peace agreement will be implemented as signed. But much more negotiation remains, such as the exact degree of autonomy for the eastern republics. Putin will not attack other nations but work to rebuild trade with Europe. With his left hand he will build trade with China.
 
  • #900
Astronuc said:
Isn't it customary to support ground troops with air power? Does Ukraine have an air force? Do they have helicopters?

Yes, they have air power.

There are numerous reports of anti-air weaponry in "rebel" hands. Even when conflict was not as intense, man-portable anti-air weapons were effective against helos, and you remember MH17. Ukrainian forces probably conserve air power for now.
 

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