Medical Is Coping with Asperger's Worth the Effort?

[Astronuc]

In junior high school, I used to sit in the back of one my classrooms. I used to lean against the back wall, and occasionally bang my head gently against the wall - because it felt good. One day, a student came into the classroom with a message from the teacher in that other classroom to stop banging on the wall. I had no idea that I was banging my head hard enough to disrupt the classroom next door. Apparently is affected the chalkboard.

I also had ADD, and I had a hard time sitting still. I think I worried other kids around me.


As for senses, my hearing is pretty good. One day, my sixth grade teacher made the class be 'so quiet that one could hear a pin drop'. She actually took a pin and dropped it behind her desk. I could hear from my desk several rows back, and I called it. The teacher was surprised that I could actually hear it. None of the other kids could hear it.


I've never felt at a disadvantage or that I have some disorder. I'm just different.

 

[Astronuc]

. . . when I post a list of my 'observations/interpretations' for NT's?

One should not generalize to NT's, nor make the discussion personal, particulary responding to posts using the second person singular (you). It would have been more appropriate to write some NTs. NT is a spectrum just as AS. It's only a disorder if the symptoms prevent one from functioning in a positive/productive/orderly manner.

 

[Evo]

Just take a look at your post above, post #6. Why was it OK to post a list of 'symptoms' for Apergers and in some way this isn't 'an attack', yet you regard it as an 'attack' when I post a list of my 'observations/interpretations' for NT's?

Because the list of typical symptoms comes from many years of professional evaluation that has resulted in the list of chararcteristics that enable diagnosis.

Aspergers in the DSM V will be "autism spectrum disorder"

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=97

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=94

 

[Evo]

Just saw Evo's last post - This is a perfect example of an open minded NT trying to "get along with" an aspy...she knows they can't "let anything go", and so she pretends to agree so they will feel that they've "won", and that the other side "sees the light" finally, so the issue can be laid to rest.

The aspy is horrified to find that every last detail and fact has not been fully explored, and would see the above pretense as a nightmare scenario, because that would mean that they HAD TO keep arguing. Failure to be convincing on the part of an NT is very dangerous, if the aspy thinks they are not REALLY convinced. An aspy is obsessed with chasing down what they perceive as all the details. An NT is feeling like their life would be the same whether or not these particular details were explored, and therefore doesn't have any motivation to continue the exercise. In fact, the NT may feel like time that could be spent chasing down other details, that might have nothing to do with the aspies topic of concern, would be more productive. The aspy may not be able to grasp this, as the lure of the topic at hand, unresolved, is agonizing.

Not at all. I've found that trying to get them to agree that they could be wrong is a waste of time. So I just let them let off steam, then the topic changes and everything is fine.

Are you saying that an endlessly pointless argument with someone with asperger's is going to be fruitful, or have any chance of a positive outcome? With my close friends, I usually say I'm not going to argue with them, and let them get it out of their system. This has been so much better than when I tried to make them see my point, it only got them very upset.

 

[Tea Jay]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations? None of the 'typical characteristics' given above about Asperger or Autism so far seem like any sort of 'disability', other than the fact that NT's are choosing to see them as disabilities. I consider it very judgemental. So what that a person doesn't look at you when you are talking with them? So what they get excited about something you find dull, but are blank about something you think they should be getting excited about? What's the issue? Why LABEL it as a deficiency?

I find typical NT's are typically deficient in many traits that I do not see for people I would regard to be comfortably within the Asperger spectrum.

My personal observations/interpretations:
NT's get overly emotional about matters they regard as personal sleights or signs of disrespect, their behaviour is capricious and inconsistent, they over-look the obvious, they decline to argue a point until each detail and element is properly resolved and seek to close down a discussion quick and disallow all the germane information to be raised (probably because it is an attention-span overload for them - and/or where they have an 'emotional attachment' to the point they are arguing), they use 'intuition' instead of logic or at least allow logic to be overruled by their 'feelings'. Worst of all they tell Aspergers types who see the world as a daunting, confusing place that it is because they, the Aspies, are the incapable ones and they have to learn to 'overcome their disability'; whereas in fact the world IS a confusing place and they are just seeing it for how it really is, all at once where an NT has mental blocks put in place that they do not see the bigger picture all in one go. (I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. 'Coping strategies' may be required to deal with the world, but that's no excuse to imply Aspies are the ones with the issue for seeing the world as a daunting, confusing place - often made confusing by public-admin inconsistencies generated by NT's.)

NT's put up barriers of perception that enable their limited attention spans to deal with one small piece at a time, but that also means they may miss the interconnections that may explain the whole. NT's have to rely on what they call their 'intuition', which is probably just the teeny Autistic-capable part of their brain flagging up that they are not seeing something obvious, if only they could expand and maintain their attention (maybe it'd help if the NT's could cut out all the emotional baggage that interferes with their 'logical' deductions).

NT's have physical disabilities too - anecdotally their sense of smell and hearing seem impaired (compared with Aspies/Autistics), they can't see fluorescent lights flashing blue and yellow (they sell monitors and televisions with such a bizarrely low refresh rate of 50 or 60Hz that most Autistic types can't look at it without their eyes watering - thank goodness for LCD monitors!). NT's illogical and irrational decisions are plain in many an administrative errors, who then try to cover up their mistakes rather than just saying 'I did that, sorry' like a typical Asperger spectrum type would. NT's also seem to have an impaired sense of touch and feel, though I have not noticed that they are more or less 'clumsy' than 'fully functional' Aspies/Autists. Maybe there is a balance between touch/sensitivity versus motive skills between the groups that renders no 'clumsiness disadvantage' one way or the other.

(These are my Aspie observations. I checked the script with my NT wife, to whom I have reflected on many anecdotes over the years that illustrate these matters, and she agrees that these are reasonable observations to make from my perspective.)

I bolded a few (Example) areas where it might have given the impression that you were attacking NT's.

Again, this is a spectrum disorder, and everyone is somewhere on the spectrum at any given time. Aspies just tend to clump up at one end more than the other.

So, sure, an aspie can rate very highly for intelligence, but, typically at the expense of social skills. The aspies with the best combination are capable of great feats of concentration, and also of interacting with others at least sufficiently enough to get along.

My son was not very happy in grade school, he would pull his shirt over his head to shut people out, and other wise act a bit odd. The friends he had would play with him, but they might not want him along if going to the mall to pick up girls...he was a liability in that area due to the brutal honesty/inappropriate behavior thing, etc.

He did finish college, he did get a job as a tax auditor, and he did catch people cheating on taxes, sometimes by simply remembering another return that had conflicting information, and tying the two returns together, and then proving they were part of a fraud, etc.

When the state budget cuts came though, he was not "Net-worked" like some of his peers were (They were better liked as they got along with others better...), and he was furloughed to save money. (Repercussion of a deficiency in social skills)

There is a movement among some deaf parents to not ALLOW their deaf children to get operations that would restore their hearing. The parents felt that they did not feel that a lack of hearing was a deficiency, and that they were just as valuable a person as a hearing person. They pointed out that a deaf person can concentrate better as they have fewer distractions, etc.

They stated that it was a deficiency on the part of hearing people who refused to learn sign language or ensure that facilities would be equipped so as to recognize the deaf and their needs.

Analogously, I feel that they are correct about the value of the hearing and deaf being equal, but I disagree about deafness as not being a disability. Its simply harder to be deaf, just like it is harder to have aspergers.

Humans are social animals, as are most primates. A primate with impaired social capabilities has a deficiency in that area. If the primate can compensate for that deficiency with heightened capabilities in other areas, it is simply easier.

I'm sure the early cavemen would not have developed flint napping skills, etc, if not for some prehistoric aspy spending countless years working on it. And, the poor guy was probably bludgeoned to death when the other cavemen got tired of the guy going on and on about it.

 

[micromass]

In my observations, Aspergers often encounter considerable difficulties and have a lot of emotional problems. This is why Aspergers IS a deficiency: the condition causes suffering.

Conditions like depression, anxiety, etc. are also deficiencies. So most of the population in fact has some sort of deficiency.

There is no reason to become defensive and to claim that Aspergers is not a deficiency. If it causes significant sufferent, then it is a problem!

 

[Tea Jay]

Not at all. I've found that trying to get them to agree that they could be wrong is a waste of time. So I just let them let off steam, then the topic changes and everything is fine.

Are you saying that an endlessly pointless argument with someone with asperger's is going to be fruitful, or have any chance of a positive outcome? With my close friends, I usually say I'm not going to argue with them, and let them get it out of their system. This has been so much better than when I tried to make them see my point, it only got them very upset.

Actually, I'm agreeing with your findings. We both say NT's feign agreement to get the pit bulls to let go...I just pointed out that an aspy KNOWING you might be pretending is horrifying to THEM...and if you were caught it could be dangerous.

 

[cmb]

One should not generalize to NT's, nor make the discussion personal, particulary responding to posts using the second person singular (you). It would have been more appropriate to write some NTs. NT is a spectrum just as AS. It's only a disorder if the symptoms prevent one from functioning in a positive/productive/orderly manner.

&

I bolded a few (Example) areas where it might have given the impression that you were attacking NT's.

Apologies, where due. I concede these points. No offence was intended. (If anything, as has been noted, where I have not noticed matters that could be interpreted personally it is a display of some of the issues in hand.)

 

[bm0p700f]

I know exactly what Asperger's is I am a teacher and ahave taught many with the condition. See [ost 2 and post 3 folk so you where this is coming from. In my opinion the problems are two way and come from a lack of understanding of how aspergers effects people. Once you understand how to communicate and interact with someone with aspergers most of these "problems" are not problems at all. At least that is my experience of teaching.

 

[Tea Jay]

&Apologies, where due. I concede these points. No offence was intended. (If anything, as has been noted, where I have not noticed matters that could be interpreted personally it is a display of some of the issues in hand.)

Don't worry, in a case like this, I think everyone is aware of the contexts. A forum where everyone can discuss things like this openly is a great gift. Its a melting pot of ideas and perceptions, we are all all richer for the experience.

 

[Evo]

For me, my biggest shortcoming/hurdle to overcome was realizing when I was guilty of "information overload". Too much information/emotions for them to deal with, it takes a while to learn when you are overloading. It could just be me venting about coworkers and clients after a day at work. One friend would just stop me and say "ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, I have no idea why you are angry at your cell phone". Or I'd share lyrics to a song and they would reply that they couldn't understand the "meaning". After awhile you learn more about how they use and deal with information. Their minds are fascinating. It does take a lot of trial and error at first, but well worth it.

 

[Tea Jay]

For me, my biggest shortcoming/hurdle to overcome was realizing when I was guilty of "information overload". Too much information/emotions for them to deal with, it takes a while to learn when you are overloading. It could just be me venting about coworkers and clients after a day at work. One friend would just stop me and say "ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, I have no idea why you are angry at your cell phone". Or I'd share lyrics to a song and they would reply that they couldn't understand the "meaning". After awhile you learn more about how they use and deal with information. Their minds are fascinating. It does take a lot of trial and error at first, but well worth it.

Definitely.

We over load them with emotions or similar concepts they can't deal with well, they overload us with data quantities or qualities we can't deal with well.

The mental processes ARE fascinating. You can see deep into their minds when you get their feedback on what you gave them...and it will potentially be a perspective that was unexpected/unwarranted, but, also potentially unique and interesting.

 

[JDStupi]

cmb, I would like to say that I do not really find anything wrong with what you are saying, in fact I find it I find it interesting, because no clear reason can be given as to why you are "wrong". I do think you are right in saying that people may accept something as being "normal", but this is merely a contingent state of affairs, but when the "norm" is questioned they may get overly emotional rather than look at the facts. This may be because people have lived out their entire lives in accordance with "the norms" and so norms form a bedrock for their lives and when they are questioned people feel like a compass in a Faraday Cage. I am almost positive that this is not a NT thing, this is a human thing:The tenacious clingling to core beliefs as a sense of guidance and direction.

I don't know.

I am "NT" as you call it, but I am aware of these things, to a certain extent. I see that what you are saying is that, it is because of the NT's that you are considered "abnormal" and it is simply because you cannot play life by their rules that you are labelled as something "deficient". This is largely true (not that you are deficient necessarily, haha). Also, what you are saying about attentiveness to stimuli is also true, we see things very different. It is all about adaptivity to your environment. I will also agree with others in saying you almost sounded as though you were attacking NT's insinuating that it was their problem they could not do the things you could. This is not the way we want the dialogue to proceed, that is just the same song with a different arrangement. We don't want to jump between black and white.

I do not know much about your type, so tell me. How does the fact that you are a sort emotional outcast make you feel? Emotions and social rewards are largely a strong motivator for behavior. I can almost sense some degree of anger and frustration with "NT"s treatment of you. So, you too need some degree of attention and affection, or that is what I read out of that. How are you emotionally affected by the misunderstanding? How does it affect your sense of self that you are consistently treated differently?

NT's as you call them often are emotionally motivated by feelings of social approbation. Their "ego" is intimatley connected to feeling valued by others, in a social and romantic context. Not all, of course, but for many this is a source of unhealthy cycles. Even the healthy do this, the difference between "healthy" and "unhealthy" can simply be the social acceptability of the pursued channels.

We NT's do silly things in relationships and I suspect you are right that many are so wrapped up in pursuing social approbation in some sense or another that they miss the beauty of the everyday: Nature, ideas and the now. I just do not know to what extent you are motivated by others to do certain things, and that can be a beautiful experience. That is part of it all, realizing that many social conventions and personal emotional issues are highly arbitrary results of past contingencies, but if you wish to be able to explore the way in which others experience and view the world, from the inside in a way, you need to try to compromise or adapt to them. This is only valid for "NT"s though. I don't know if you even have that motivating factor as strongly as we, but do not be misled by the behavior of many, it can be a beautiful thing. Sometimes you find that two people can be nothing alike, but by compromising and staying attuned to each others non-verbal communication you can develop a close relationship. This is what is most interesting to me about you. How would you develop a relationship? A romantic one. Often times, relationships between unlikely pairs develop because of their attunement to each others non-verbal behaviors and their appreciation for their differences. For you it seems this is so much harder to do.

The world is largely arbitrary, whether you are an aspy or an NT. Either way you are not going to "chase down the details". The bewildering complexity is there, you are right and often times people miss it.


We all want to feel valued, that's why you are frustrated. That is why somebody posted somethingh where the aspes said "We couldn't have any scientists, engineers etc without aspies". That is a stupid quote. It is wrong. To suggest that it is because of aspies that we have all these great things is luancy and is just an attempt to overcompensate for your perceived deficiences. It is a rhetorical tool to balance the perception of you as "deficient". That is not to say aspies are not great scientists and engineers or whatever, simply to say that so are "NT's" and I used that to show that we also have a lot in common emotionally. That tactic is an irrational tactic that "NT's" use as well.

I think you could stand to learn something from us just as we can stand to learn something from you.

Sorry for the long, meandering post

 

[cmb]

Thanks for the post/interest JD. I was thinking over some of this post while I was away.

cmb, I would like to say that I do not really find anything wrong with what you are saying, in fact I find it I find it interesting, because no clear reason can be given as to why you are "wrong". I do think you are right in saying that people may accept something as being "normal", but this is merely a contingent state of affairs

Exactly. The point of what I wrote above was that if, say, some 3 foot tall extraterrestrials arrived, their 'biologists' would report back that humans are tall, whereas humans would describe them as 'short'. So where I was suggesting 'humans are overly emotional', this was not me trying to present some new information, but merely a re-interpretation of extant NT comments about Aspergers - why describe them as 'having limited emotional expression', why do NT's not, alternatively, describe themselves as having relatively excessively expressive emotions?

But, hey, I think we've beaten than horse and can move on...

I do not know much about your type, so tell me. How does the fact that you are a sort emotional outcast make you feel? Emotions and social rewards are largely a strong motivator for behavior. I can almost sense some degree of anger and frustration with "NT"s treatment of you. So, you too need some degree of attention and affection, or that is what I read out of that. How are you emotionally affected by the misunderstanding? How does it affect your sense of self that you are consistently treated differently?

To answer the question directly; I feel very little sense of 'external referencing' that has any impact on me at all. I have no qualms about doing the most unconventional thing, if I see it as the logical and optimum way of doing something. I can't think of any particularly good examples off the top of my head; how about asking for ice cubes in your beer to stop it going warm? Or trying out crisps (US=chips) in the middle of the supermarket to make sure they are fresh and crunchy, then buying a trolley worth of the rest with the same batch code if I like them? The only limit is that I do tend to behave in a way that doesn't make others uncomfortable, but only to the extent that it serves to avoid impacting the way they choose to interact with me.

I do not regard 'I' as 'what I am', but rather 'what I do'. I am a 'Human Doing'. 'Being' seems pointless to me without the 'Doing'.

Frankly, I find the idea of being a recipient of 'affection' from the outside world somewhat uncomfortable. However, there are rewards to be gained from such an interaction, the most particular being that I see people responding favourably to the things I do. It is most important to me that people have the best regard for the things I do, rather than the person I am.

But I would like to clarify - I don't think I am a typical Aspie. That's why I didn't describe myself as one. A couple of years back my wife encouraged me to go with her to see a guy who specialised in helping NT/Aspie couples. He, literally, wrote the book on it. He recognised I was not just Aspie but more so, with a million coping strategies all laid over each other that would appear 'wierd' to the norm, or maybe even the Aspie. Some of which I wonder how much is instinct and how much are acquired defence mechanisms. I can't figure it out any more. Anyhow, he concluded I was a 'unique' case.

Maybe stretching Evo analogy too far, the 'deer in headlights' does certainly apply to me, but my reaction is quite different to most that I see. The difference is that I don't freeze. Whereas an NT would simply step off the road, and an Aspie gets confused, my mission seems absolutely clear - I charge the on-coming car! This is how life took me when I was a wee boy; life came charging up at me in my adolescence but rather than back down I charged back at the challenge. Too much to go into in this post, but my life has been one of 'excess' achievement, one of 'over-compensating', perhaps?

The thing is this; I cannot decide if this was because I had instinctive coping strategies, or whether I learned them. I know that I see the world in a wholly different way to NT, and to most Aspies too. Ideas/issues are like objects to me. They 'appear' as physical lumps of a thing. I can't really describe it in a better way than that which might make sense, but, for example, if I am in a meeting and there is something not yet being discussed and missed, it literally appears in the room as clear as a chair or a table would be there to someone else. Also, I have a very strong association with places for particular methods/ techniques/ concepts, and, naturally, one of these 'idea' object may appear in a particular 'place', associated with a solution, before I have had time to even 'think' about it.

So we return to your question; I do not think NT or Aspies have any difference in their emotions, but they surely deal with them differently. To me, a 'feeling' or 'emotion' is a textured object. They, at minimum, have texture and some basic shape. If I think hard I can usually associate a specific colour/smell/sound with them too. Ultimately, I do not think I 'feel' the experience in the way I comprehend others doing so. Some years ago, a friend whom I had known for a few months was talking about my behaviours and he said he felt I did have all the 'usual' emotions, but that I put each in its own little box, and I could put it on a shelf if I didn't want it, or pick it up and use it somehow. I'm not sure how true that is, but there again I'm not looking at that objectively and it does chime in with the above description I'm giving.

Finally, I come on to considering whether any of this means anything useful to anyone else. I think it does. I look at Aspies and Autists and see a bundle of drivers and motivations, which seem clear enough to me, pushing them on to behave as they do. Whereas NT's look at them and deduce 'symptoms' and 'deficiencies'. It's like Aspies are standing on the surface of a ball, I'm inside the ball looking out, NT's on the outside looking down. We get a different picture.

From that perspective, what I would speculate is happening/has happened is that NT's cope with the world by limiting their attention. Their brains instinctively screen the outside world, they scan it for what looks the most relevant thing to them at the time. This works fine for the most part (but can tend to fail with overload/too many details/previous experience [emotional attachments] with some of the issue). I cope with the world in a wholly different way - everything comes flowing in and is 'translated' into a landscape of objects, textures, colours and patterns. I put them in that order. 'Texture' seems to play most strongly for me, personally. Whereas I look at some Aspies and they don't appear to have any coping strategy at all and just flunk out from the overload.

What might this tell us? I think, in general, NT's who help Aspies deal with the world don't understand that NT coping mechanisms might not work for the Aspie. If that is true, there is no point giving them advice to 'do things slowly' or 'write things down, orderly' or even to try to pay attention to other things, as an NT would. So can Aspies be taught to deal with the world by formulating the full flood of information they get into manageable objects, like I seem to do? I can't answer that one. It seems to be a natural thing to do, I am not aware that I have consciously chosen to do this, so to not do it would seem as alien as being asked to do it if I weren't already doing so. So maybe the NT's coping strategies are as good as can be offered most functionally disabled Aspie/Autist, but it does give a little hope that, perhaps, there are ways to coach some Aspies to deal with the world in a way more natural for them?(PS - I think I have trumped you on post length!)

 

[zoobyshoe]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

You're missing Andre's point, which is that people with Asperger's and Autism often experience what should be neutral sensory experiences as unnaturally intense. This isn't a matter of interpretation: these experiences cause no damage and represent no danger, yet their intensity to the AS spectrum person is as if they did. There is a current theory that distraction by this sensory overload is what prevents people on the AS from learning basic elements of social interaction. In other words, the proposition is that As people have no particular neurological deficiencies in processing social cues, etc, rather, the problem is that they are unable to develop them due to constant distraction by overly intense sensory experiences.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations?

This is very disingenuous of you, and is obviously not what is going on. I am sure you're familiar with lots of the literature and can figure out why certain aspects of the condition are viewed as liabilities rather than neutral alternate ways of dealing with things. People aren't categorically called "deficient" for behaving contrary to expectation. That's an untenable claim. People are often praised and celebrated for behaving contrary to expectation in any case where it doesn't create problems. In cases where it does create problems, it's the problems that are objected to, not the contrary-to-expectation part.

 

[cmb]

You're missing Andre's point, which is that people with Asperger's and Autism often experience what should be neutral sensory experiences as unnaturally intense.

I'm not aware that I had intended to make any response to Andre's point at all. I was merely picking up on the language of 'deficiency' when 'difference' would have been sufficient.

In regards Andre's specific point, whether sensory overload relates to different social interaction skills, I don't have much of an opinion. But I'd take a stab at it by referring to my previous answers - NT's single out the 'personal interaction' element of their immediate surroundings by blocking out other information, whereas an Aspie type would need to deal with all the other inputs simultaneously. So in that regard, I'd say there is mileage in that view, but that it is not necessarily related to 'learning'. It's just in their nature.

I should add, there is a point (for me too) where one's awareness goes into 'lock-down', which would, clearly, tend to be more likely for those with less coping strategies. Same for NT's I am sure, but different drivers. There can be too much to deal with (even with strategies in place) and whereas the NT tends to go for 'fight or flight' type responses, Aspies tend to begin fixation methods. They wander off into a mental space with things in it they are comfortable dealing with, then close the door.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations?

This is very disingenuous of you, and is obviously not what is going on.

OK, let's start that one again: Is it OK to apply the term 'deficient' and 'having a neurological condition' to a group of people, many of whom are perfectly at ease with themselves and get on just fine in the world? This is a spectrum of condition expressed in as many forms as there are individuals in it, yet these terms are being bandied around in reference to that spectrum, rather than being used in regards complications that might, particularly, arise for people on it.

Why should people who cope perfectly well with the world be put into a category that some have labelled as being characterised by 'deficiencies'?

 

[Evo]

OK, let's start that one again: Is it OK to apply the term 'deficient' and 'having a neurological condition' to a group of people, many of whom are perfectly at ease with themselves and get on just fine in the world? This is a spectrum of condition expressed in as many forms as there are individuals in it, yet these terms are being bandied around in reference to that spectrum, rather than being used in regards complications that might, particularly, arise for people on it.

Why should people who cope perfectly well with the world be put into a category that some have labelled as a 'deficiency'?

If they have the deficiencies, then it is appropriate. You are not going to convince anyone that if they are happy in their abnormal world that they are normal in society as a whole.

This has gotten off topic, and has been moved to medical sciences, so going forward, please post valid medical studies that back up your personal opinions.

 

[atyy]

If they have the deficiencies, then it is appropriate. You are not going to convince anyone that if they are happy in their abnormal world that they are normal in society as a whole.

This has gotten off topic, and has been moved to medical sciences, so going forward, please post valid medical studies that back up your personal opinions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11014749
Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?

 

[Evo]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11014749
Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?

Like I said, if they have deficiencies/issues/whatever you want to call it that fit with the diagnostic criteria, then yes. If they are so *high functioning* that it causes no problems, I doubt they would even be under psychiatric care to get diagnosed.

I posted the proposed diagnostic criteria from the DSM V in an earlier post.

 

[cmb]

Like I said, if they have deficiencies/issues/whatever you want to call it...

'...whatever you want to call it...'

IF a group of people is diagnosed by a set of criteria in which none are 'deficiencies' in themselves, the use of the term with respect to the group is pejorative. There is no 'whatever you want to call it', the use of the term would be wrong, given the criteria you, yourself, have provided (unless the term is used specifically in discussion of another matter which is a deficiency).

 

[Evo]

'...whatever you want to call it...'

IF a group of people is diagnosed by a set of criteria in which none are 'deficiencies' in themselves, the use of the term with respect to the group is pejorative. There is no 'whatever you want to call it', the use of the term would be wrong, given the criteria you, yourself, have provided (unless the term is used specifically in discussion of another matter which is a deficiency).

I was referring to you wanting to change the descriptions.

Maybe by changing the language, then, we can encourage everyone to move to a common centre-ground of behavioural style, rather than delineating between the two that emphasises differences.

 

[cmb]

I'm not sure I got your meaning there...

Anyhow, the other point you just raised is fairly important. Why would a person coping with this get diagnosed anyhow? I'll explain that I ended up in the position of discussing this a few years back with health professionals because I was getting extremely fatigued. I think, it's true, there may be a possible element related to struggling to juggle all these 'coping mechanisms' for so long (they are not free of mental exertion to make them work well!), but it was/is principally due to an underlying migraine issue.

The point being; where 'Asperger Spectrum' is poorly understood by the health practitioner, there may be a tendency to attribute 'that condition' to the cause of tiredness or anxiety, or anything else that is not obviously physiological, when, in fact, that would just be a red-herring. If it is viewed as 'an illness', then any other 'illnesses' get all bundled together, which may end up with a 'non-optimum' outcome for the actual treatment proposed.

With no outward sign of other issues, other than the 'diagnostic' observations of behaviour, there is a risk that someone who fits the diagnosis may have any other 'invisible' health problems bundled into a "well, it's to do with his Asperger Condition" type of response. Aspie folks can suffer chronic fatigue and mental health issues too, just like NT's, but there's a risk of not-being-listened-to and missing out on taking appropriate measures quickly, even when you insist the issue is nothing to do with your 'Asperger's Condition'.

 

[atyy]

Like I said, if they have deficiencies/issues/whatever you want to call it that fit with the diagnostic criteria, then yes. If they are so *high functioning* that it causes no problems, I doubt they would even be under psychiatric care to get diagnosed.

I posted the proposed diagnostic criteria from the DSM V in an earlier post.

I'm only posting pointers for discussion in response to your request for references from academic literature that may help formulate thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Other than that, I don't intend to agree or disagree with any points made by any posters in this thread.

Here's another interesting excerpt:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21931335
In search of biomarkers for autism: scientific, social and ethical challenges
Pat Walsh, Mayada Elsabbagh, Patrick Bolton & Ilina Singh
Nature Reviews Neuroscience 12, 603-612 (October 2011)
"Box 4 | Neurodiversity

Proponents of neurodiversity claim that the atypical neurological development seen in autism is, in fact, a normal human variation that should be recognized as an acceptable difference. They therefore reject the conceptually problematic classifications of 'normal' and 'abnormal' functioning and insist on a distinction between 'neuro-diverse' and 'neuro-typical' functioning⁵⁸. As a result, we are encouraged to broaden our understanding of health, disease and disability and to reconceptualize autism in such a way that we no longer think of it as a condition that needs treatment, correction and prevention.

The neurodiversity movement presents an important challenge to our usual perspectives on autism by forcing us to attend to the contested nature of the concept of 'normality' and its attendant complexities, by drawing our attention to the positive aspects of autistic spectrum conditions and by insisting on respect for cognitive differences. In all of these ways, it resembles the campaigns for recognition by other disadvantaged groups who eventually succeeded in changing public perceptions of their condition. The positive side of this standpoint is that it enables people with autism to celebrate their distinctive strengths. However, it has also been suggested⁵⁹ that accepting neurodiversity may reinforce the unhelpful and potentially dangerous idea that there are differences between autistic and non-autistic people at a fundamental biological and ontological level that affect, for instance, how we conceive of their moral agency and membership of the moral community⁶⁰. It may also lead to a tendency to underestimate the severe effects autism has on the lives of those with serious cognitive impairments and the acute isolation and loneliness experienced by even high-functioning individuals⁶¹.

58. Glannon, W. Neurodiversity. JEMH 2, 1–6 (2007).

59. Holmer Nadeson, M. Constructing Autism: Unravelling the Truth and Understanding the Social (Routledge, London, 2005).

60. Barnbaum, D. R. The Ethics of Autism: Among Them, But Not Of Them (Indiana Univ. Press, Bloomington, Indiana, 2008).

61. Fitzpatrick, M. Defeating Autism (Routledge, London, 2009)."

 

[Evo]

I'm only posting pointers for discussion in response to your request for references from academic literature that may help formulate thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Other than that, I don't intend to agree or disagree with any points made by any posters in this thread.

Here's another interesting excerpt:

In search of biomarkers for autism: scientific, social and ethical challenges
Pat Walsh, Mayada Elsabbagh, Patrick Bolton & Ilina Singh
Nature Reviews Neuroscience 12, 603-612 (October 2011)
"Box 4 | Neurodiversity

No, I only asked CMB to back up his claims.

I can only go by those I know that have been diagnosed with aspergers that have the inability to make eye contact, they cannot cope with new situations, they cannot cope with stressful situations, or social situations. They don't undertand/can't cope with emotions. They don't work well with others, and romantic relationships are more than they can handle.

Of course, there are different levels, autism spectrum disorder covers a very wide range, and as had been pointed out, people with ASD often suffer from additional disorders. All this is discussed in what I previously linked to.

There is nothing wrong with having disorders, once you get diagnosed, you can get help, if you want it. Some don't, they prefer to withdraw and avoid the outside world as much as possible.

 

[cmb]

No, I only asked CMB to back up his claims.

I'm not aware that I have made many claims. Mostly, I was simply 'reciprocating' claims others have made, here in this thread, but normalised to an 'Asperger's' point of view.

Which claims do you feel remain unsubstantiated?

 

[Sinister1811]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I couldn't help but notice the following:

No, I only asked CMB to back up his claims.

I can only go by those I know that have been diagnosed with aspergers that have the inability to make eye contact, they cannot cope with new situations, they cannot cope with stressful situations, or social situations. They don't undertand/can't cope with emotions. They don't work well with others, and romantic relationships are more than they can handle.

You seem to make a lot of generalizations about people with Asperger's. I also have it, or rather, I've been diagnosed with it. But a lot of what you have said doesn't apply to me at all. You seem to forget that people are individuals, regardless of whether they have AS or not. You seem to be under the assumption that *all* people with Asperger's are defective. Just as one neurotypical differs from another, so too do "Aspies". Not all of them struggle with eye contact, not all them struggle with emotions etc.

Neutotypicals aren't perfect either. A lot of them also have issues, which I see you've completely overlooked. Instead, you seem to imply that AS is a defective psychiatric condition, in which, a person must "seek help". I must say I was offended by your lack of understanding on the subject. You claim to know what it's like, just by knowing two people with AS.

 

[Evo]

You seem to make a lot of generalizations about people with Asperger's.

No, I've made it clear that these are the syptoms of those I personally know and that there ia a large range. You should read all of a person's posts before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

You should also read the post you're quoting.

My post you quoted CLEARLY states

I can only go by those I know that have been diagnosed with aspergers

AND

Of course, there are different levels, autism spectrum disorder covers a very wide range, and as had been pointed out, people with ASD often suffer from additional disorders. All this is discussed in what I previously linked to.

There is nothing wrong with having disorders, once you get diagnosed, you can get help, if you want it. Some don't, they prefer to withdraw and avoid the outside world as much as possible.

I'll also post what I told another member.

No, I just want to stop the labeling of people as "this" and "that" unless we are specifically discussing an impairment. Since "neurotypical" is the default norm, there is no reason to use that term. People with disabilities can fall within the normal range of behavior, using that term automatically places a person with a disability into the "abnormal" category and that's wrong.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Anyhow, the other point you just raised is fairly important. Why would a person coping with this get diagnosed anyhow? I'll explain that I ended up in the position of discussing this a few years back with health professionals because I was getting extremely fatigued. I think, it's true, there may be a possible element related to struggling to juggle all these 'coping mechanisms' for so long (they are not free of mental exertion to make them work well!), but it was/is principally due to an underlying migraine issue.

The point being; where 'Asperger Spectrum' is poorly understood by the health practitioner, there may be a tendency to attribute 'that condition' to the cause of tiredness or anxiety, or anything else that is not obviously physiological, when, in fact, that would just be a red-herring. If it is viewed as 'an illness', then any other 'illnesses' get all bundled together, which may end up with a 'non-optimum' outcome for the actual treatment proposed.

With no outward sign of other issues, other than the 'diagnostic' observations of behaviour, there is a risk that someone who fits the diagnosis may have any other 'invisible' health problems bundled into a "well, it's to do with his Asperger Condition" type of response. Aspie folks can suffer chronic fatigue and mental health issues too, just like NT's, but there's a risk of not-being-listened-to and missing out on taking appropriate measures quickly, even when you insist the issue is nothing to do with your 'Asperger's Condition'.

It sounds like your case is unusual, the Asperger's was suspected incidental to a different complaint, and didn't directly cause any problems that got you sent for an evaluation. Had you not had Migraine and chronic fatigue the Asperger's might never have been remarked.

Asperger's is frequently co-morbid with a range of other things like seizures, obsessive-compulsive disorders, tourettes, depression, and even bipolar disorder. Migraine doesn't surprise me, either. But there shouldn't be any suggestion Asperger's is the cause of any of the co-morbid conditions. All anyone knows is that they're frequently co-morbid.

Anyway, you have to bear in mind that in most cases the Asperger's, itself, causes some dysfunction or incident that gets the person referred for evaluation. There's a marked inability to cope that threatens, or outright prevents, their functioning in school or on the job. The circumstances of your diagnosis weren't typical, and it doesn't sound like whatever Asperger's symptoms you have rendered you dysfunctional.

 

[CrimpJiggler]

My understanding is that someone who does not have this mental structure cannot comprehend what it is like to function with this completely different world view. I feel that it is not a disease or ‘syndrome’ as much as having different tools to analyze and interact with reality. There are advantages that more than make up for the difficulty in communication.

I agree. Similar to how someone with aspergers cannot comprehend what it is like to function with this completely different world view. I don't consider it a disease or a disorder either because given the choice, I would not want to "cure" it. Normal people like gathering in groups and talking to each other about mundane things. I like programming and learning scientific related things. What I do with my time is more productive so why not? Thats the reality behind it, people with this condition make up for their disabilities with their strengths. Unfortunately, normal people don't give them the benefit of the doubt and instead, they assume their lack of ability in social areas is a reflection of their overall abilities which couldn't be further from the truth. The first ability someone who meets you sees is your social and verbal communication abilities.

 

[cmb]

I agree. Similar to how someone with aspergers cannot comprehend what it is like to function with this completely different world view. ... Thats the reality behind it, people with this condition make up for their disabilities with their strengths. ...

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I have been ready to admit, as above, that there may be particular disabilities associated with being on the Asperger Spectrum, and it is quite appropriate to discuss those complications as having clinical impact. But it is a different thing to imply all on this spectrum have complementary and mitigating skills (as much as it is as inappropriate to imply all on the spectrum have 'deficiencies').

I would also reject the notion that 'AS' people are 'incapable' of perceiving the world like an 'NT', just as I would reject the idea that an 'NT' would find it impossible to imagine what it is like to be an 'AS'. It is a continuum of behaviour, and in the margin where that continuum meets (or, even, by particular behavioural strategies) then though one may instinctively have 'preferred' behaviours, it may not exclude being able to 'strech' oneself to behave, or at least imagine behaving, differently to one's norm.

I suspect the 'sociological' issue behind a general public viewing Asperger's as a 'disability' is because most are only introduced to the issue/'condition' by being shown the worst cases in which such people are disabled by their AS tendencies and need special care. Why would they take much interest in someone who is 'coping', or, even, may be doing better than they are managing?! That wouldn't make very interesting TV, so the general public is unlikely to see 'a day in the life of an average Aspie coping with life'.