Is Energy Size-Dependent or Just an Abstract Concept?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether energy takes up space and if a more energetic particle must be larger in size compared to a less energetic one. Participants explore various types of energy, their implications, and the relationship between energy, mass, and size, touching on theoretical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that energy is an abstract concept and does not take up space, while others suggest that energy can influence the size of particles under certain conditions.
  • Different types of energy (kinetic, potential, mass, momentum, heat) are discussed, with some participants proposing that they can affect size differently depending on the context.
  • There is a contention regarding whether mass, as a form of potential energy, implies that more mass means more size, with some asserting that mass does not equate to volume.
  • Some participants question the validity of the notion that energy can be added to particles like electrons, suggesting that if electrons are dimensionless, the question may not be applicable.
  • Discussions about the representation of atoms and their energy states lead to the idea that excited states may appear larger, but it is debated whether this implies that energy itself takes up space.
  • Participants express differing views on the definition of "taking up space," with some finding it clearly defined in physics and others arguing it is not well-defined.
  • There are challenges to the idea that energy can be isolated as a "thing," with some asserting it is a property of systems rather than an independent entity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, with multiple competing views on whether energy takes up space and how it relates to the size of particles. The discussion remains unresolved with ongoing debate about the definitions and implications of energy in relation to physical space.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in defining energy and its relationship to space and size, with various assumptions and conditions influencing the arguments presented. The complexity of energy types and their interactions with matter adds to the ambiguity of the topic.

  • #31
256bits said:
If unconstrained, the volume expands. If constrained, the increase in energy will display itself as a pressure.
Can you apply this claim to a volume of water at 1 degree Celsius?
 
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  • #32
nasu said:
But is that space really "taken"?
...
.
Thanks for the reply.
See the previous post to Drakith about who and what has the energy in an excited atom.

( I wrote that ages ago and forgot :cry: to PUSH the send button )
 
  • #33
jbriggs444 said:
Can you apply this claim to a volume of water at 1 degree Celsius?
Perhaps I put my qualifier "For a range of temperature " , in a place where it does not cover the basic theme I was trying to present, which was for when a material undergoes a positive thermal expansion ( with increase in temperature ).

I think this has already been mentioned in post 25 nasu.
Extracting thermal energy from water until it freezes makes it to "take more space". So this energy will take some negative space? :)
As for every general rule, there is an exception.

For the record, even though most materials expand upon heating, there are other exceptions besides H20 which display negative thermal expansion, with liquid water having its greatest density at around 4, and ice at --200 C. The Wiki offers some others such as
Perhaps one of the most studied materials to exhibit negative thermal expansion is https://www.physicsforums.com/wiki/Cubic_Zirconium_Tungstate (ZrW2O8). This compound contracts continuously over a temperature range of 0.3 to 1050 K
 
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  • #34
Well, I don't have any answers for you. I agree with the the idea that energy is an abstract quantity that cannot take up space.
 

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