News Is Heroism Defined by One Act or a Lifetime of Actions?

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The discussion centers on the definition of a "war hero," particularly in relation to John McCain's military service and political career. While some argue that all soldiers deserve recognition, not all can be classified as war heroes, as true valor is often associated with extraordinary acts of bravery. There is debate over McCain's qualifications for the presidency, with some asserting that military service should be a requirement for candidates. Critics question the authenticity of McCain's war hero status, citing allegations of preferential treatment during his captivity and his opposition to efforts to retrieve other POWs. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the complexities of military service, heroism, and political eligibility.
  • #91
Gokul43201 said:
Russ, I was not very clear in my previous post. It seemed to me from the tone of your previous post like you were saying he only got a Navy Cross. I guess I misinterpreted it.
No, it was my mistake and I deleted the previous post here a few minutes after posting it when I saw Bob's.

In any case, the citation I read and said was for the Navy cross was for the DFC - same critereon applies, though: McCain pursued the mission under imminent risk of death due to a badly damaged plane. Heck, the word "hero" appears in the citation!
 
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  • #92
russ_watters said:
His objection to McCain due to the partying he did at the Academy, I can handle. But hey - Obama was no saint in college either (almost no one is). He smoked pot.
I think there's a difference between graduating in the bottom 1% of your Naval Academy class and graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law. I didn't find much of value in that testimonial either, but I think the point there was meant to be indicative of McCain's priorities in College.
 
  • #93
russ_watters said:
His objection to McCain due to the partying he did at the Academy, I can handle. But hey - Obama was no saint in college either (almost no one is). He smoked pot. So did Clinton. Bush probably did coke and most of them probably did a substantial amount of drinking.It is if the allegation is false.

Partying is fine, I don't even count pot, coke, hookers, whatever, as long as you can keep your grades up. It's not like they were in a gang or giving it away to kids. It was for their own enjoyment.

The problem is that it got in the way of McCain's schooling.
 
  • #94
russ_watters said:
Now you're just making stuff up, turbo-1. Due to need, it is quite common for everyone who wants to be a pilot and has the necessary qualifications (physical and flight aptitude exams) to get selected.
I'm trying to find the quote, Russ. It was from a classmate of McCain's and it was a while back.

If you doubt that he received preferential treatment due to his family, ask yourself how many jets a naval aviator in training should be allowed to crash before he is washed out of the program. One? Two? McCain crashed three. One in Corpus Cristi Bay, another in Spain when he was flying too low and took out some power lines, and yet another when he was flying himself to Philly in a trainer to watch the Army-Navy game and experienced a flameout.
 
  • #95
B. Elliott said:
IMO, I believe that to be allowed to run for president, one must have served a period of time in on of the armed forces to be eligible for presidency.

I believe that to be allowed to run for president, one must have served a period of time as a scientist. It would help avoid a lot of illogical and stupid decisions. :smile:
 
  • #96
Gokul43201 said:
I would not assign any credibility to an unsupported third person account of incidents. There is very little quality control on such things, and they could just as likely be completely trumped up slander as reports of real incidents.

The second video is thus useless to me.
Sure. I just have so little american polical culture, I did not even see the first video before.
The second video, indeed, I watched only for 15 s or so :smile:.
russ_watters said:
No, there are no real arguments against the idea that veterans should be allowed to run for President.
Well, I just mentionned separation of powers, one of the fundamentals of democracy.
Frankly, if we should bar anyone from office, it should be lawyers! That's the ultimate conflict of interest!
:smile: Agreed, based on exactly the same principle. Then there is no more candidate :rolleyes:
 
  • #97
vanesch said:
I believe that to be allowed to run for president, one must have served a period of time as a scientist. It would help avoid a lot of illogical and stupid decisions. :smile:

I certainly think that there should be somewhat specific education requirements. In todays day and age I don't think it would be at all unfounded.
 
  • #98
TheStatutoryApe said:
I certainly think that there should be somewhat specific education requirements.

Look around you, how many morons with diplomas you meet every day.
 
  • #99
Borek said:
Look around you, how many morons with diplomas you meet every day.
True. Diplomas do not confer intelligence, reason, judgment, etc, nor are they any indicator that the holder is honest, ethical, or compassionate. There are plenty of crooks and fools with framed paper.
 
  • #100
TheStatutoryApe said:
I certainly think that there should be somewhat specific education requirements. In todays day and age I don't think it would be at all unfounded.
I disagree somewhat with that. You can learn a lot by yourself or outside of the academia.

But on a related note, what do you think about computer literacy? Do you think that a pre-requisite in this day and age should be that a President know how to operate a computer and be somewhat conversant with the use of modern technology?
 
  • #101
Aside from citizenship and age why would there be any further requirement?

If the majority of the citizens want the Executive branch of the government run by anyone meeting those basic requirements (oh yeah and they have to be alive) then let them vote that person in.

If the person proves unfit to serve there is another mechanism to remedy that.

Personally I would be happy just to have a President that served the interests of the entire country without succumbing to merely serving the interest of perpetuating their own stay in the office. But then again such a person might not meet the requirement of being a living human born in the USA.

As a point of minor interest - while McCain was born to American Citizen parents, he was apparently born on a Panama naval installation.
http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200804/041008c.html
 
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  • #102
turbo-1 said:
If you doubt that he received preferential treatment due to his family, ask yourself how many jets a naval aviator in training should be allowed to crash before he is washed out of the program. One? Two? McCain crashed three. One in Corpus Cristi Bay, another in Spain when he was flying too low and took out some power lines, and yet another when he was flying himself to Philly in a trainer to watch the Army-Navy game and experienced a flameout.
That depends, of course, on the exact causes of the crashes.
 
  • #103
humanino said:
Well, I just mentionned separation of powers, one of the fundamentals of democracy.
Yes, it is: but what you described is not separation of powers. Separation of powers is a multi-branch government and has nothing to do with the military or the qualifications of the leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers
Agreed, based on exactly the same principle. Then there is no more candidate
Thus, we are agreed that it is a completely pointless argument.
 
  • #104
Gokul43201 said:
I think there's a difference between graduating in the bottom 1% of your Naval Academy class and graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law. I didn't find much of value in that testimonial either, but I think the point there was meant to be indicative of McCain's priorities in College.
Granted, with the caveat that I don't know what Obama did as an undergrad.

In either case, I have several friends who got absolutely abysmal grades as undergrads and then were stellar in grad school and in life in general. People mature at different ages/rates.
 
  • #105
russ_watters said:
Granted, with the caveat that I don't know what Obama did as an undergrad.
He goofed off a lot in his first two years at Occidental College, and was an average student there. He then transferred to Columbia and became dead serious about academics.

Source: "Obama: From Promise to Power", David Mendell
 
  • #106
vanesch said:
I believe that to be allowed to run for president, one must have served a period of time as a scientist. It would help avoid a lot of illogical and stupid decisions. :smile:

That does sound like a good requirement. I'm for it! But also consider that the military provides avenues for becoming a scientist.

Two birds with one stone! :biggrin:
 
  • #107
B. Elliott said:
That does sound like a good requirement. I'm for it! But also consider that the military provides avenues for becoming a scientist.

Two birds with one stone! :biggrin:

Point is that if you have to have been a soldier, a scientist, a business man, a CEO, a sportsman and a movie actor, chances are you're a job hopper :smile:
 
  • #108
vanesch said:
Point is that if you have to have been a soldier, a scientist, a business man, a CEO, a sportsman and a movie actor, chances are you're a job hopper :smile:

Eh, anything that deals with entertainment definitely shouldn't be a requirement, though the position shouldn't be held against one who has been an entertainer or a sportsman.

Overall the military teaches objective reasoning skills along with a plethora of other critical thinking skills... as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Those same skills are also applied in many, many other job areas.
 
  • #109
B. Elliott said:
Overall the military teaches objective reasoning skills along with a plethora of other critical thinking skills... as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Those same skills are also applied in many, many other job areas.
As displayed in this thread, most people who haven't been in the military have this image of mindless killing machines, but you're right that servicemen, officers in particular, are taught critical thinking skills, ethics, and morality*+, which are essential for the ability to make good decisions and be good leaders and are not taught anywhere else. The first half of my undergrad education, at the Naval academy, included weekly leadership/ethics seminars, leadership and ethics classes, weekly speeches by prominent leaders (Colin Powell, Janet Reno, Jim Lovell, etc.), and upperclassman-based instruction (that one's hard to describe). The second half of my undergrad education at Drexel University included one engineering ethics class (which is a relatively new thing) . There is no other place to learn good leadership skills than in the military. That's why, to me, military service is the single biggest qualification I look for in leaders. There are very few people who haven't been in the miltiary who are capable of being real leaders.

*Liberals and young people tend to be moral relativists, as a default belief (along with the 'anything is possible' belief is the 'right and wrong depends on the individual'). One amazing experience I had at the Naval Academy was actual discussions about morality. Most people have these ideas in their heads about morality that they never actually explore - they think something, it sounds good, so they believe it. But when you start to actually discuss it, argue it, and think it through, people realize that the standard assumption of moral relativism is actually defunct. It is wrong, obsolete, and it doesn't work in practice. I'd guess that when we started these seminars, more than 75?% of midshipmen were relativists. By the end, after being forced to think about it, more than 75% were moral absolutists/realists. This is the kind of thinking I want from my leaders. The charismatic, but empty leadership displayed by Obama will be a big problem if the country ever needs real leadership@.

+Caveat: the type and level of this training is not consistent, even in the military. In particular, a re-emphasizing of the need for officers to be moral free-thinkers occurred after the My Lai incident, which happened after McCain was captured. So it is possible that midshipmen today receive more leadership training than McCain did when he was at the Academy.

@Clinton will likely go down in history as an above average President. What will prevent him from being considered a great or even exceptional President is his utter lack of real leadership skills. Clinton relied heavily on public opinion polls to make his decisions and surrounded himself with mindless sycophants who couldn't actually help him make decisions. He lacked morality/ethics and didn't think/lead for himself. He was lucky enough to be President during a time where the US needed perhaps the least leadership in its history (with the exception of doing nothing about the rising terrorism problem). Bush, on the other hand, will go down in history as a bad President who nevertheless had good leadership skills, which enabled him to start an unnecessary war and get re-elected. He got people to line up behind what was otherwise an unpopular vision.
 
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  • #110
And what happens when your critical thinking leads you to the conclusion that you are a participant in an unjust cause?

PS:
Russ said:
He got people to line up behind what was otherwise an unpopular vision.
That's not hard to do when you don't have a problem spinning yarns. It also helps when people are dumb as nails. But most importantly, kicking the bad guy's ass has never been an unpopular thing in this country.
 
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  • #111
russ_watters said:
As displayed in this thread, most people who haven't been in the military have this image of mindless killing machines, but you're right that servicemen, officers in particular, are taught critical thinking skills, ethics, and morality*+, which are essential for the ability to make good decisions and be good leaders and are not taught anywhere else. The first half of my undergrad education, at the Naval academy, included weekly leadership/ethics seminars, leadership and ethics classes, weekly speeches by prominent leaders (Colin Powell, Janet Reno, Jim Lovell, etc.), and upperclassman-based instruction (that one's hard to describe). The second half of my undergrad education at Drexel University included one engineering ethics class (which is a relatively new thing) . There is no other place to learn good leadership skills than in the military. That's why, to me, military service is the single biggest qualification I look for in leaders. There are very few people who haven't been in the miltiary who are capable of being real leaders.

*Liberals and young people tend to be moral relativists, as a default belief (along with the 'anything is possible' belief is the 'right and wrong depends on the individual'). One amazing experience I had at the Naval Academy was actual discussions about morality. Most people have these ideas in their heads about morality that they never actually explore - they think something, it sounds good, so they believe it. But when you start to actually discuss it, argue it, and think it through, people realize that the standard assumption of moral relativism is actually defunct. It is wrong, obsolete, and it doesn't work in practice. I'd guess that when we started these seminars, more than 75?% of midshipmen were relativists. By the end, after being forced to think about it, more than 75% were moral absolutists/realists. This is the kind of thinking I want from my leaders. The charismatic, but empty leadership displayed by Obama will be a big problem if the country ever needs real leadership@.

+Caveat: the type and level of this training is not consistent, even in the military. In particular, a re-emphasizing of the need for officers to be moral free-thinkers occurred after the My Lai incident, which happened after McCain was captured. So it is possible that midshipmen today receive more leadership training than McCain did when he was at the Academy.

@Clinton will likely go down in history as an above average President. What will prevent him from being considered a great or even exceptional President is his utter lack of real leadership skills. Clinton relied heavily on public opinion polls to make his decisions and surrounded himself with mindless sycophants who couldn't actually help him make decisions. He lacked morality/ethics and didn't think/lead for himself. He was lucky enough to be President during a time where the US needed perhaps the least leadership in its history (with the exception of doing nothing about the rising terrorism problem). Bush, on the other hand, will go down in history as a bad President who nevertheless had good leadership skills, which enabled him to start an unnecessary war and get re-elected. He got people to line up behind what was otherwise an unpopular vision.

Very well said Russ. Very well. It's funny, but I've noticed that easily 99% of the people I know that have been in the military, advise others to join to at least gain the experience. It's seems as though it's always those with non-military experience who have something against it... who knock it. Those who were in the service always had a bad opinion on something, but overall, they advocate it.

As you said, most people also have the preconceived image in their head of a military personnel; They have an assault rifle, they're all thick-skulled brainless grunts, they have a shoot first ask questions later mentality, they're mindless killers, ect, ect.

This is the 21st century.
 
  • #112
It is clear that there are many misconceptions about the military being displayed here. I do not have time to quote each one individually so here are just a few of the blatant ones that I see.

Myth 1: Soldiers are brainwashed to be a bunch of killers.
Law enforcement (such as FBI etc.) are also trained to use deadly force when needed. Do you think that they are a bunch of killers too? Military personell generally do not like going to war. If they have to, then they try very hard to minimize collateral damage.

Myth 2: No aiming is required when dropping bombs.
This is completely false. Whether the pilot/WSO is dropping a GBU-24, an AGM-130, or just a regular "dumb bomb", if he/she wants to get it close to the target then it has to be carefully aimed and released while in the proper weapons launch parameters. Also, re-read the answer to the previous myth.

Myth 3: There is not much emotional stress involved in aerial combat missions.
All combat missions are stressful, especially when it takes you through multiple threat rings (effective radii of surface to air weaponry). The person who believes this has obviously never been in combat.

Myth 4: The National Guard is made up of a bunch of draft dodgers.
In Desert Storm and in Operation Allied Force (Kosovo), members of the Air National Guard served very well alongside the Air Force. Oh, by the way, they are very skillful pilots too.

Also, I get the impression that many here grossly underestimate the academic programs at the service academies. Having graduated from the Air Force Academy, I can say that getting accepted into the Academy was much harder for me than getting accepted into MIT. In fact, my room mate (1st year) also easily got accepted into MIT. However, he flunked out of the Air Force Academy.

Just to give an idea, here is a sample (not all inclusive) of the core curriculum (minimum requirements regardless of major): 4 semesters of Math, 2 semesters of aeronautical engineering, 2 semesters of astronautical engineering, 2 semesters of electrical engineering, 4 semesters of physics, 2 semesters of chemistry, 4 semesters of history, 4 semesters of behavioral science, 2 semesters of general engineering, 2 semesters of engineering mechanics, 2 semesters of philosophy, 2 semesters of biology, 2 semesters of a foreign language, 1 semester of aerospace physiology, 3 semesters of political science, 2 semesters of economics, 1 semester of English Literature, 1 semester of technical writing, 4 semesters of professional military studies (officership and warfighting).

We should remember that this list is not all inclusive, the full list is the absolute minimum (even if you are a history or a humanities major), and that you will have to add the courses for your academic major.

On another note, I have a feeling that many here do not realize that an officer will need to have a Master's degree if he/she intends to make it past the rank of Major (not to mention getting into Air War College). The point that I am getting at here is that I do not see how someone who is unable to think clearly could make it in the military.
 
  • #113
B. Elliott said:
Eh, anything that deals with entertainment definitely shouldn't be a requirement, though the position shouldn't be held against one who has been an entertainer or a sportsman.

Overall the military teaches objective reasoning skills along with a plethora of other critical thinking skills... as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Those same skills are also applied in many, many other job areas.

My point was that giving special favor for a candidate which has this or that job experience is IMO not a good idea, because in every job you find qualities (and disadvantages too). So the perfect candidate should have had all those good experiences. If one requires him/her to have had a military experience, because of certain positive aspects related to have been in the military, then you can hold a very similar discourse for about every job category.

Entertainment is funny: you've had Reagan, and then we have Schwarzie of course (not as president, but almost so), etc... Being in the entertainment industry gives you perfect qualities for being a president: perfect communication skills, "an ear to the public", you know how to bring happiness, you've taken the skin of many different personalities (good knowledge of human psychology etc...), extremely good liar (eh?) ...

Sport is fun: self discipline, achievement, endurance, performance, a drive for results, good knowledge of the pharmaceutical sector (eh ?), ...

Being a gang leader is fun: can make others respect you, can take hard decisions, can be creative with the law, capable to manage difficult people, sense of risk, has no enemies (alive) ...
 
  • #114
vanesch said:
My point was that giving special favor for a candidate which has this or that job experience is IMO not a good idea, because in every job you find qualities (and disadvantages too). So the perfect candidate should have had all those good experiences. If one requires him/her to have had a military experience, because of certain positive aspects related to have been in the military, then you can hold a very similar discourse for about every job category.

Entertainment is funny: you've had Reagan, and then we have Schwarzie of course (not as president, but almost so), etc... Being in the entertainment industry gives you perfect qualities for being a president: perfect communication skills, "an ear to the public", you know how to bring happiness, you've taken the skin of many different personalities (good knowledge of human psychology etc...), extremely good liar (eh?) ...

Sport is fun: self discipline, achievement, endurance, performance, a drive for results, good knowledge of the pharmaceutical sector (eh ?), ...

Being a gang leader is fun: can make others respect you, can take hard decisions, can be creative with the law, capable to manage difficult people, sense of risk, has no enemies (alive) ...

But being an entertainer or player of sports did not involve serving the US government its self.

That's my point.
 
  • #115
russ_watters said:
Bush, on the other hand, will go down in history as a bad President who nevertheless had good leadership skills, which enabled him to start an unnecessary war and get re-elected. He got people to line up behind what was otherwise an unpopular vision.

Sorry, but I don't see bald deceitfulness employed to forward a small minded agenda as a particularly useful or desirable leadership skill. Bush Jr. will surely only be seen as a weak imitation of his father, who himself was a less than memorable president.
 
  • #116
I'm still 120% positive that everyone should have to serve in one branch of the service or another. That's where my requirement for having service background comes from. If everyone had spent time in the Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army, Coast Guard, ect. everyone will be eligible to run for president.
 
  • #117
Gokul43201 said:
And what happens when your critical thinking leads you to the conclusion that you are a participant in an unjust cause?
That's one of the primary reasons why critical thinking skills and ethics are so important. For one thing, officers are duty-bound to refuse orders that are illegal.

Now perhaps you are referring specifically to the Vietnam or Iraq wars. You need to remember that one junior officer can't change an entire war. The breadth of the effect that you can have is dependent on your paygrade. But that's why those qualities are good to have in a President: at that level, you want someone with the critical thinking skills and ethics required to make good decisions about war. I trust a person like McCain with such decisions much more than I trust a person like Obama.
 
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  • #118
B. Elliott said:
Very well said Russ. Very well. It's funny, but I've noticed that easily 99% of the people I know that have been in the military, advise others to join to at least gain the experience. It's seems as though it's always those with non-military experience who have something against it... who knock it. Those who were in the service always had a bad opinion on something, but overall, they advocate it.
Since things didn't as planned for me in the military, I didn't have a very good experience, but I would still recommend it to anyone. It is a character builder like no other experience you can have.

Regarding the brainwashing thing, that just makes me laugh. Kids go to a school like Berkeley and become conformist noncomformists and think that they are free thinkers, when in reality they are just carbon copies of every other mindless sign-carrying hippie wannabee out there. They follow those causes because it is fun and it is cool, not because they have thought the issues through and see them clearly.
 
  • #119
LowlyPion said:
Sorry, but I don't see bald deceitfulness employed to forward a small minded agenda as a particularly useful or desirable leadership skill. Bush Jr. will surely only be seen as a weak imitation of his father, who himself was a less than memorable president.
You didn't read that correctly. Every leader has a vision. Some visions are good, some visions are bad, and some visions are good even though no one likes them. Regardless of the specifics of the vision, good leadership is what gets people behind a leader's vision.
 
  • #120
B. Elliott said:
I'm still 120% positive that everyone should have to serve in one branch of the service or another.

I would have to disagree with that. A more massive service would take on a life of its own. I think it would become a concentration of power that would offer temptations too great for even the best of men. Look at how these men in power today have justified their actions and would likely cling to power still if they could only figure a bigger lie or had any hopes of subverting the checks that will apparently drive them from office in 6 months.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the personal discipline and accountability and opportunity to succeed in life through the exercise of ones skills that service provides. But I can't lose sight of the perils of societal regimentation. If everyone marches to the beat of a single drum then who can be trusted to beat the drum?

History records as exceptions such men as Cincinnatus or George Washington eschewing unchecked power to return to their lives.
 

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