Is it Safe to Visit Arab Countries?

[nabki]

I think they should deport all these Islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries.

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

the most easy way is looking for an explosive belt. or you could follow the bush method and torture everyone with slightly dark skin, or a beard, or sandals, or a headdress, or black hair, or a mid-eastern accent, etc etc etc...

Mmmmm,...yeah...No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.

proof. you know, many people think that in the middle east it is normal to belch at a meal too. strange...

We have some of the most radical imams in Europe

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

 

[Cyrus]

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Yeah, but I don't care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?...

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves won't give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.

 

[EL]

being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder

Disorder? Why ffs would homosexuality be a disorder?
This tells me a lot about your conception of tolerance.
To me it is like saying that you are disordered just because you don't happen to like the same kind of cars as I do.

and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Punishing homosexual acts is extreme intolerance, and no country which does so can ever call themselves civilized. (I'm not sure wheter you are defending this or not though?)

 

[Gokul43201]

Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).

Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.

For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

 

[lisab]

Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).

Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.

For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

The links at the top of the page go to the full reports...very interesting stuff!

 

[AhmedEzz]

I left this thread 2 days ago, and it was a cultural discussion about arab countries. I find a lot of tension and confusion in those comments. Please guys let's chill and respect one another for a second.
This is a very complicated topic you're talking about, that involves a lot of people and your comments may offend another person, even if you don't mean it.

"kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland. "
This is extreme ignorance, do you think Islamic world enshrines these actions? mate wake up...This was a terrorist cell and that's a matter that these countries need to deal with and not our fault.

"preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs for allowing gays in their country"

I have NEVER once in my whole life heard an Imam saying that. However, I do imagine that they exist but again this is not our fault or product. This is the responsibility of the country they are preaching in.

"I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds."

talk to me about tolerance

"Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?"
Its not the beards, anyone can have beards or shave them, its not the speech for even the most neutral can have a fiery speech and the most radical can have a nice quiet speech. I think its all about the person, who is he and how does he think. This is personal stuff and can't be generalised over a region. You can't say just because a German named Hitler did bad stuff than all Germans are bad.

"saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries"
Guys who tells you this stuff..please for argument's sake mind you words. We respect Europeans for en lighting the world with technology. Europeans have made many many contributions that helped mankind. However, they are very unfair regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict that should have ended a long time ago, even now still lies a chance but the world has to be just and fair.

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof?

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.

Its very sad how the media in the West is broadcasting messages of hate against Islam. What is more sad is that Europeans, who are supposed to be educated and objective are buying this stuff. Islam is an idea, a belief, a way of life and that is all that it is. Islam is not responsible for people who believe in it. Alot can do things in the name of Christianity and Jews but this does not by any way mean that the religion asked them to do it. Please no more throwing of accusations and be objective and consider what you are saying before actually saying it. I meant no offense to anyone and I hope this will be the rational discussion it once was.

 

[Cyrus]

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I don't tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

 

[EL]

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

For curiosity, let's have a look at the Global Gender Gap Report 2007 from the World Economic Forum: http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Gender%20Gap/GenderGap

The rankings of in total 128 countries,
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf ,
looks like:

1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Iceland
5. New Zeeland
6. Philippines
7. Germany
8. Denmark
9. Ireland
10. Spain
11. United Kingdom
12. Netherlands
...
31. USA
32. Kazakhstan
...
50. Uganda
51. France
...
73.China
...
84. Italy
...
114. India
115. Bahrain
116. Cameroon
117. Burkina Faso
118. Iran
119. Oman
120. Egypt
121. Turkey
122. Morocco
123. Benin
124. Saudi Arabia
125. Nepal
126. Pakistan
127. Chad
128. Yemen

I think we still have a lot to do in Sweden. You think women are not oppressed at all in Egypt...

 

[Red Rum]

Women and oppression

EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.

 

[Cyrus]

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

 

[Evo]

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/slave-in-the-garage/article55737.html

 

[EL]

EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.

I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries?

This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women?

This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

 

[EL]

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

 

[Cyrus]

So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

Obviously, I wasnt being serious.

 

[Gokul43201]

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof?

Proof? I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself. Besides, the evidence is there in the link I provided.

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.

Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?

 

[AhmedEzz]

Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?

I wasn't referring to the PEW RC, I was talking in general.

I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself

Where in Egypt did you go?

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

A year ago, I wrote a research paper called "Modern Slavery", so I know what you're talking about. But let me tell you this, its not just Egypt, its not just Africa, its a worldwide issue.

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

Hmm, it seems you provide credible evidence, so let me re-phrase my words : women are sometimes oppressed in Egypt.

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I don't tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

I want to say a thing, there is Islam, there's the West and there's someone in the middle poisoning the relation between the two. I think that the major source of poison throughout the years has been the Arab-Israeli conflict, it should have ended a long time ago but it didn't. Extremists are using this to recruit more people to extremists cause, if this conflict is resolved -and i think it can- then the world would have ended a major source of corruption in the region.

 

[Red Rum]

Concur

I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

And in fact I agree with all of your comments. However I disagree that the bias towards women taking career breaks to have children equates with oppression. I see it as acceptance of a biological fact. There are laws that prevent sex discrimination in salaries, but it is largely up to the individual to make sure that he or she gets what they deserve. In most of Europe men and women start on the same salary and salaries diverge mainly because men tend to get promoted more often or faster than women (although not in most of the companies I've worked with;75% of my bosses have been women). Most of the companies I worked with operate a results based appraisal (RBA) which tended to favour women who tend to be very focussed on specific tasks (I know I'm generalising, but I find women are very good at completing tasks while men tend to like starting tasks and taking them so far before they get bored and want to start something new). The RBA system favours people who like telling the organisation how good they are. Companies tend to reward as little as they can get away with. So in general if a divergence in salary occurs, it's down to the individual. And half the trick is writing targets that you know in advance can be easily achieved. After that everything else is a bonus. If discrimination against women is written into the salary, of course it's wrong and I'm sure in most cases illegal. Many of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years couldn't have been performed by women anyway simply because of the situations in which I worked. It's a sad fact that I can't hire a female trouble shooter because they would not be able to work in most of the cultural environments where they would be expected to work, e.g. most of Africa, The Middle east, China and many parts of south Asia. 70% of the people working at my level in Europe are women. If they get paid less than me it's because I have a lot more experience and live in a more expensive country.

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

 

[Cyrus]

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

I don't agree with it, so there's no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

Sorry, but what I am talking about are Imams and people on the streets clearly chanting hate. I am not talking about big bad media showing them in a bad light. I am talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.


Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets. They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them. They are as sick to me as a KKK rally.

 

[Cyrus]

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

Id like to know what that is?

 

[AhmedEzz]

I don't agree with it, so there's no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Im talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And I'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

 

[Cyrus]

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

No no, I said the M.E. should have tolerance. I.e. I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if I am a woman), or long pants (if I am a man), visiting a country that's NOT my religion. That is tolerance. Your trying to turn it around by saying I should somehow respect the fact that I am forced to participate in something I don't agree with, nor observe. I don't have misconceptions, I am from the middle east (iran).

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And I'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

You need to pay attention to exactly what I said. I never said 'protest'. I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave. Were not going to play hypothetical games here about being under siege. No 'country' was under siege for those cartoons. You're example is weak.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

Ahem, what's that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone. I don't care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational. You are trying to convolute your argument with weak arguments to try and distract from what I am showing you. But don't worry, my tone isn't even close to being loud, if it were -you'd know it.

Look its really this simple. If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country. I.e. you become 'westernized'. If you don't want to become westernized, then DONT MOVE to a western country. No one is forcing a person from the ME to move to europe or the USA.

Now, don't get me wrong. The middle east has many great aspects to it. Food, culture, history, art, architecture. HOWEVER, this means NOTHING about TOLERANCE. We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocU5x_03MDM

Is this 'big bad media'? I don't think so...it speaks for itself.

 

[AhmedEzz]

I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if I am a woman), or long pants (if I am a man), visiting a country that's NOT my religion. That is tolerance

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

whats that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

I don't care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country

Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational.

I can see that.

If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country.

I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.

I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before...

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

 

[Cyrus]

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Yes, I am well aware of what you said. Now, do you really think a bunch of westerners running around in short shorts and bikinis is going to fly in any middle eastern country? They still have to dress conservatively.

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

I was clear in what I said. In the case that it is their country, they should be put in jail.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

No, it wasnt. The middle east produces cartoons of jews much worse all the time. Weak argument.

Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Again, I am not being provocative. I am dead serious in what I said, I am not just saying it to get you worked up, and I am not going to change what I said if you don't like it -sorry.

I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

I hope your not serious? It has everything to do with what were saying! People in the streets saying death to so-and-so in a country that's not theirs to begin with!

I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before...

And WORLDWIDE includes the middle east.

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

No, its modest and toleranct, COMPARED to other ME countries. Its not tolerant compared to the rest of the world, and that's the real benchmark.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

No, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones I am talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

 

[AhmedEzz]

o, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones I am talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

Well, that doesn't refer in one way or another to Islam. Just as Jewish nutjobs and Christian nutjobs don't have anything to do with Judaism and Christianity as well. Its an internal affair of the country that hosts them but it relate to Islam the religion...I think all this time, we were having a miscommunication, I was never defending those people, or giving them excuses. We have the Muslim brotherhood if you heard, and we are suffering just as much as you do.
Don't apply my words on those wacks, my words and defense are for the REAL Muslims, those who are peaceful, moral, gentle and good people.
Islam teaches you all about peace, kindness, morals, life, after-life, love, tolerance, justice, work, dedication and faith. Islam is not responsible for those who call themselves Muslims.
A Muslims, like myself, are asked to 1) believe that "there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet", 2)pray,3)fast,4)do charity and 5)pilgrim-if one can-...these are the 5 principals of Islam. That's it, nothing else...it doesn't at all enshrine violence,terror,fear and corruption and all this stuff that you hear about in the news. Islam forbids killing civilians for one.

You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

Yes my friend but don't link this to Islam. As I said we are suffering as much as you do from them. They are nutjobs, crazy, radical, terrorists, extremists, call them whatever you like but they are NOT Muslims.

It is a pleasure talking to you, because a lot of people really have a gray look, they can't tell what is the difference and what is Islam. I'm really happy with this discussion because i feel that this is what we need the most, a cross-cultural discussion to clear out the misconceptions that are ruining our relations with the West...sorry for such a long post,

 

[Cyrus]

I'll bring the Chi if you bring Ruby, and well smoke a sheesha and discuss this while she dances for us.

http://tinypic.com/ic1y0o.jpg

Well, also have to stop by lebanon and get some food. There food is the best in the world. Better than Iran, by far.

 

[AhmedEzz]

that's a joke or you're being sarcastic?

 

[Cyrus]

What, you don't like Ruby?

 

[AhmedEzz]

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

 

[Cyrus]

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Ok, I'll bring some western infadels for you, as long as you bring me Ruby.

 

[AhmedEzz]

what does infadels mean? I'll try to look for Hayfaa if I couldn't find Ruby.

 

[RonPaul2008]

If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?

I read in news some people got prosecuted for religious based crimes.

Thanks

If you visit a foreign country you are subject to their laws, and you may not be protected under any United States rights. You may even be denied to see a member from the local American embassy in some places. Why would you wish to visit any of the countries you listed anyway?

 

[aquitaine]

Is this 'big bad media'? I don't think so...it speaks for itself.

Europe really needs to take the hard line against these a$$holes.

They can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead or converted.

 

[nabki]

Is this 'big bad media'? I don't think so...it speaks for itself.

Europe really needs to take the hard line against these a$$holes.

They can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead or converted.

unrealistic radicalist. i bet you believe in (the myth of) pure evil.

Y 18:21
AhmedEzz what does infadels mean? I'll try to look for Hayfaa if I couldn't find Ruby.
Y 06:00
Cyrus Originally Posted by AhmedEzz
I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Ok, I'll bring some western infadels for you, as long as you bring me Ruby.
Y 04:20
AhmedEzz I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.
Y 03:20
Cyrus What, you don't like Ruby?
Y 02:42
AhmedEzz that's a joke or you're being sarcastic?
Y 01:46
Cyrus I'll bring the Chi if you bring Ruby, and well smoke a sheesha and discuss this while she dances for us.

http://tinypic.com/ic1y0o.jpg

Well, also have to stop by lebanon and get some food. There food is the best in the world. Better than Iran, by far.

please you two, stop being childish and don't start degrading this discussion, if you two continue posting such silly and irrevelant posts it will get very personal and then it will be locked... admedezz you were doing pretty well in my oppinion until that started. and cyrus resorting to such childish posts only shows how weak and unreal your view is.

No, it wasnt. The middle east produces cartoons of jews much worse all the time. Weak argument.

proof. most of the ME is anti-zionist, not anti-semetic including such groups as hezbullah and hamas.

Originally Posted by nabki
immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Yeah, but I don't care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?...

a disorder, as in short sightedness, autisim, diabetes etc... evolutionary, it is not a plus, and can hinder the number of a certain species, that is why you don't see totally gay species, and that is why i called it a disorder. i understand that it seemed a little nazi the way i put it but i don't say kill them because they are blind ,diabetic gay etc...

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves won't give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.

i lived in the uk for over 12 years, i think i know what i am talking about. i saw the moral degredation that was happening and that was admitted by many other people. and they arent helping the situation by not allowing the moderates in.


and it seems like i am arguing against intolerant radical westerners... sheesh.

 

[aquitaine]

unrealistic radicalist. i bet you believe in (the myth of) pure evil.

The people in the video speak for themselves. 63% of muslims in england support terrorist acts, 32% of muslims in england think the west is immoral and should be destroyed. This is NOT a small minority and to do nothing against them will simply embolden them further.

 

[Cyrus]

please you two, stop being childish and don't start degrading this discussion, if you two continue posting such silly and irrevelant posts it will get very personal and then it will be locked... admedezz you were doing pretty well in my oppinion until that started. and cyrus resorting to such childish posts only shows how weak and unreal your view is.

I wasnt being childish to him, it was a joke of friendship (which I don't think he understood). This is why you shouldn't interject into my conversation with someone else. I wasnt talking to you, was I? If I wanted to talk to you, I would have quoted you. Dont stick your nose into my conversation.

proof. most of the ME is anti-zionist, not anti-semetic including such groups as hezbullah and hamas.

Im sure that makes them bunch of nice guys then, huh? The west has freedom of press. They can publish whatever they want about muhammad. If the middle east wants to kick and scream about it like a bunch of children, they make themselves look all the worse. And they can thank THEMSELVES.

a disorder, as in short sightedness, autisim, diabetes etc... evolutionary, it is not a plus, and can hinder the number of a certain species, that is why you don't see totally gay species, and that is why i called it a disorder. i understand that it seemed a little nazi the way i put it but i don't say kill them because they are blind ,diabetic gay etc...

I would look up the word 'disorder' in a dictionary. Actually, what you did say was that you can 'punish homosexual acts.' Now, I don't know if you mean one can, or one should. I'll let you clear that up though.

i lived in the uk for over 12 years, i think i know what i am talking about. i saw the moral degredation that was happening and that was admitted by many other people. and they arent helping the situation by not allowing the moderates in.

That must make you an expert on moral authority. Are you implying that radical imams are now 'moderates'? This phase is comical. So, what are people doing in the UK these days, running around raping and killing each other? What a general, nonsense statement.

and it seems like i am arguing against intolerant radical westerners... sheesh.

If you think this is 'radical' westerners, then your in for a rude awakening. This is NORMAL western thinking. Get used to it.