- #61
kasse
- 383
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As far as I know, critizising religion is not allowed here.
News Is it Safe to Visit Arab Countries?
- Thread starter rootX
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Traveling to Arab countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia requires caution due to strict laws influenced by Islamic traditions. In Saudi Arabia, for instance, bringing non-Islamic religious texts is prohibited, and there are severe restrictions on alcohol and public behavior. However, some believe that naive Westerners may receive leniency if they demonstrate genuine misunderstanding and remorse. Egypt is noted for its relative tolerance, allowing behaviors similar to those in Western countries, though it still has limitations, such as restrictions on public nudity and alcohol consumption in certain areas. The level of tolerance varies significantly across Arab nations, with wealthier countries often being less accommodating to foreigners. Discussions also highlight that while governments may impose strict laws, individual interactions can be friendly and welcoming. It's crucial for travelers to research local customs and laws before visiting to avoid potential legal issues.
- #62
jaap de vries
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Hey man its all all right. Its so great in y'alls country that such large numbers decide to hit the road and come to countries like Holland where they transport there intolerance in mosques paid for with my tax euros. Or kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland.nabki said:
We have some of the http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/netherlands-radical-imam-teachers-to.html" for allowing gays in their country. These Imams are not from Saudi Arabia but usually from Morocco, sometimes Egypt. So I am sorry I don't believe these countries are tolerant and neither seem the people that come from there. It turned the Netherlands from a tolerant Country to a Intolerant Country which is to expect because intolerance always wins against intolerance as.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm
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- #63
EL
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Who is critizising religion?kasse said:
- #64
Cyrus
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Its funny to read the people from the Middle East try to say its a tolerant place. 
Mmmmm,...yeah...No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.
Mmmmm,...yeah...No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.
- #65
Cyrus
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jaap de vries said:
I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.
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- #66
EL
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Cyrus said:
When they commit a crime, yes. Before that, freedom of speach most hold equally for everyone.
- #67
mheslep
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Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?Cyrus said:
- #68
jaap de vries
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mheslep said:
Thats a good point and off course slightly subjective. I am no xenophobe so I don't care about clothing too much accept when they get in the way of public safety like a full cover ninja suit for women.
Outrageous speech definitely makes you a radical. The "outrageousness" depends on the frame of reference, which for me is the Netherlands or the US where I live now. I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries. However, were I am from it is not and sounds radical. doesn't matter if it is said in a suit and tie or in a traditional attire with sandals.
- #69
Cyrus
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mheslep said:
I think its pretty clear in the context of what I was talking about. The imams preaching hate speech in Europe. Box them up and ship them out.
I don't think a foreigner has the right to go to another country and trash the people there. If the do, they can get the hell out and leave.
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- #70
Cyrus
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EL said:
Not hate speech. If you're not a citizen, and your spreading that kind of garbage, they should boot you back to abdu-dabi, or whatever desert they came from.
My patience for these islamic people is about as thin as it is for conservative christians in the US, non-existant. (Sorry, just being honest).
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- #71
nabki
immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.
no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.
the most easy way is looking for an explosive belt. or you could follow the bush method and torture everyone with slightly dark skin, or a beard, or sandals, or a headdress, or black hair, or a mid-eastern accent, etc etc etc...
proof. you know, many people think that in the middle east it is normal to belch at a meal too. strange...
al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...
- #72
Cyrus
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nabki said:
Yeah, but I don't care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?...
I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves won't give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.
Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.
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- #73
EL
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Disorder? Why ffs would homosexuality be a disorder?nabki said:
This tells me a lot about your conception of tolerance.
To me it is like saying that you are disordered just because you don't happen to like the same kind of cars as I do.
Punishing homosexual acts is extreme intolerance, and no country which does so can ever call themselves civilized. (I'm not sure wheter you are defending this or not though?)
- #74
Gokul43201
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Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).
Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.
For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258
Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.
For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258
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- #75
lisab
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Gokul43201 said:
The links at the top of the page go to the full reports...very interesting stuff!
- #76
AhmedEzz
I left this thread 2 days ago, and it was a cultural discussion about arab countries. I find a lot of tension and confusion in those comments. Please guys let's chill and respect one another for a second.
This is a very complicated topic you're talking about, that involves a lot of people and your comments may offend another person, even if you don't mean it.
"kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland. "
This is extreme ignorance, do you think Islamic world enshrines these actions? mate wake up...This was a terrorist cell and that's a matter that these countries need to deal with and not our fault.
"preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs for allowing gays in their country"
I have NEVER once in my whole life heard an Imam saying that. However, I do imagine that they exist but again this is not our fault or product. This is the responsibility of the country they are preaching in.
"I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds."
talk to me about tolerance
"Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?"
Its not the beards, anyone can have beards or shave them, its not the speech for even the most neutral can have a fiery speech and the most radical can have a nice quiet speech. I think its all about the person, who is he and how does he think. This is personal stuff and can't be generalised over a region. You can't say just because a German named Hitler did bad stuff than all Germans are bad.
"saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries"
Guys who tells you this stuff..please for argument's sake mind you words. We respect Europeans for en lighting the world with technology. Europeans have made many many contributions that helped mankind. However, they are very unfair regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict that should have ended a long time ago, even now still lies a chance but the world has to be just and fair.
"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"
proof?
Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.
Its very sad how the media in the West is broadcasting messages of hate against Islam. What is more sad is that Europeans, who are supposed to be educated and objective are buying this stuff. Islam is an idea, a belief, a way of life and that is all that it is. Islam is not responsible for people who believe in it. Alot can do things in the name of Christianity and Jews but this does not by any way mean that the religion asked them to do it. Please no more throwing of accusations and be objective and consider what you are saying before actually saying it. I meant no offense to anyone and I hope this will be the rational discussion it once was.
This is a very complicated topic you're talking about, that involves a lot of people and your comments may offend another person, even if you don't mean it.
"kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland. "
This is extreme ignorance, do you think Islamic world enshrines these actions? mate wake up...This was a terrorist cell and that's a matter that these countries need to deal with and not our fault.
"preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs for allowing gays in their country"
I have NEVER once in my whole life heard an Imam saying that. However, I do imagine that they exist but again this is not our fault or product. This is the responsibility of the country they are preaching in.
"I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds."
talk to me about tolerance
"Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?"
Its not the beards, anyone can have beards or shave them, its not the speech for even the most neutral can have a fiery speech and the most radical can have a nice quiet speech. I think its all about the person, who is he and how does he think. This is personal stuff and can't be generalised over a region. You can't say just because a German named Hitler did bad stuff than all Germans are bad.
"saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries"
Guys who tells you this stuff..please for argument's sake mind you words. We respect Europeans for en lighting the world with technology. Europeans have made many many contributions that helped mankind. However, they are very unfair regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict that should have ended a long time ago, even now still lies a chance but the world has to be just and fair.
"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"
proof?
Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.
Its very sad how the media in the West is broadcasting messages of hate against Islam. What is more sad is that Europeans, who are supposed to be educated and objective are buying this stuff. Islam is an idea, a belief, a way of life and that is all that it is. Islam is not responsible for people who believe in it. Alot can do things in the name of Christianity and Jews but this does not by any way mean that the religion asked them to do it. Please no more throwing of accusations and be objective and consider what you are saying before actually saying it. I meant no offense to anyone and I hope this will be the rational discussion it once was.
- #77
Cyrus
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AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I don't tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.
- #78
EL
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AhmedEzz said:
For curiosity, let's have a look at the Global Gender Gap Report 2007 from the World Economic Forum: http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Gender%20Gap/GenderGap
The rankings of in total 128 countries,
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf ,
looks like:
I think we still have a lot to do in Sweden. You think women are not oppressed at all in Egypt...
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- #79
Red Rum
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Women and oppression
EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.
EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.
- #80
Cyrus
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Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite. 
- #81
Evo
Staff Emeritus
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An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.
http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/slave-in-the-garage/article55737.html
http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/slave-in-the-garage/article55737.html
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- #82
EL
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I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.Red Rum said:
This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.EL said:
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.
You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.EL said:
This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.
This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.
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- #83
EL
Science Advisor
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So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?Cyrus said:Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.
(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)
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- #84
Cyrus
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EL said:
Obviously, I wasnt being serious.
- #85
Gokul43201
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Proof? I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself. Besides, the evidence is there in the link I provided.AhmedEzz said:
Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?
- #86
AhmedEzz
I wasn't referring to the PEW RC, I was talking in general.
Where in Egypt did you go?
A year ago, I wrote a research paper called "Modern Slavery", so I know what you're talking about. But let me tell you this, its not just Egypt, its not just Africa, its a worldwide issue.
Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.
Hmm, it seems you provide credible evidence, so let me re-phrase my words : women are sometimes oppressed in Egypt.
Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.
I want to say a thing, there is Islam, there's the West and there's someone in the middle poisoning the relation between the two. I think that the major source of poison throughout the years has been the Arab-Israeli conflict, it should have ended a long time ago but it didn't. Extremists are using this to recruit more people to extremists cause, if this conflict is resolved -and i think it can- then the world would have ended a major source of corruption in the region.
- #87
Red Rum
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Concur
And in fact I agree with all of your comments. However I disagree that the bias towards women taking career breaks to have children equates with oppression. I see it as acceptance of a biological fact. There are laws that prevent sex discrimination in salaries, but it is largely up to the individual to make sure that he or she gets what they deserve. In most of Europe men and women start on the same salary and salaries diverge mainly because men tend to get promoted more often or faster than women (although not in most of the companies I've worked with;75% of my bosses have been women). Most of the companies I worked with operate a results based appraisal (RBA) which tended to favour women who tend to be very focussed on specific tasks (I know I'm generalising, but I find women are very good at completing tasks while men tend to like starting tasks and taking them so far before they get bored and want to start something new). The RBA system favours people who like telling the organisation how good they are. Companies tend to reward as little as they can get away with. So in general if a divergence in salary occurs, it's down to the individual. And half the trick is writing targets that you know in advance can be easily achieved. After that everything else is a bonus. If discrimination against women is written into the salary, of course it's wrong and I'm sure in most cases illegal. Many of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years couldn't have been performed by women anyway simply because of the situations in which I worked. It's a sad fact that I can't hire a female trouble shooter because they would not be able to work in most of the cultural environments where they would be expected to work, e.g. most of Africa, The Middle east, China and many parts of south Asia. 70% of the people working at my level in Europe are women. If they get paid less than me it's because I have a lot more experience and live in a more expensive country.
But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.
EL said:
And in fact I agree with all of your comments. However I disagree that the bias towards women taking career breaks to have children equates with oppression. I see it as acceptance of a biological fact. There are laws that prevent sex discrimination in salaries, but it is largely up to the individual to make sure that he or she gets what they deserve. In most of Europe men and women start on the same salary and salaries diverge mainly because men tend to get promoted more often or faster than women (although not in most of the companies I've worked with;75% of my bosses have been women). Most of the companies I worked with operate a results based appraisal (RBA) which tended to favour women who tend to be very focussed on specific tasks (I know I'm generalising, but I find women are very good at completing tasks while men tend to like starting tasks and taking them so far before they get bored and want to start something new). The RBA system favours people who like telling the organisation how good they are. Companies tend to reward as little as they can get away with. So in general if a divergence in salary occurs, it's down to the individual. And half the trick is writing targets that you know in advance can be easily achieved. After that everything else is a bonus. If discrimination against women is written into the salary, of course it's wrong and I'm sure in most cases illegal. Many of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years couldn't have been performed by women anyway simply because of the situations in which I worked. It's a sad fact that I can't hire a female trouble shooter because they would not be able to work in most of the cultural environments where they would be expected to work, e.g. most of Africa, The Middle east, China and many parts of south Asia. 70% of the people working at my level in Europe are women. If they get paid less than me it's because I have a lot more experience and live in a more expensive country.
But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.
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- #88
Cyrus
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AhmedEzz said:
I don't agree with it, so there's no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.
Sorry, but what I am talking about are Imams and people on the streets clearly chanting hate. I am not talking about big bad media showing them in a bad light. I am talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.
Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets. They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them. They are as sick to me as a KKK rally.
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- #89
Cyrus
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Red Rum said:
Id like to know what that is?
- #90
AhmedEzz
Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And I'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?
Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.
Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.