News Is it Safe to Visit Arab Countries?

[Red Rum]

Sure. Just watch the sallary statistics in any western country.

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression? In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues. I grant you there may be a glass ceiling in many businesses concerning womens' promotion. But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot. Just that each sex enjoys different benefits. My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.

 

[EL]

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression?

Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.

In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues.

First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.

But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

Just that each sex enjoys different benefits.

That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.

My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

 

[AhmedEzz]

they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men

? This is clearly oppression!

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this. Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex and so on...but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.
And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.

 

[EL]

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this.

It seems we are not agreeing here.

Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex

...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.

It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.

Sounds good. (Although we seem to have very different opinions of what counts as "fine".)

 

[vanesch]

I moved the EU-related posts to a new thread "EU stability" because they really got totally off-topic here...

 

[AhmedEzz]

We don't have that much of a difference as what counts as fine, yes what i referred to maybe a sign of oppression but what i meant to say is that there are different cases and levels of oppression. Oppression is a word that the media tends to use alot, so when one says that women are oppressed in Egypt others get the impression of the real cases of oppression which I referred to in the previous post, which of course is not the case in Egypt. Minor oppression can best describe the case in Egypt. Which I am not fine with, of course, but still not bothered too much since as I said, these are old habits that will probably end with newer generations and proper education.
Glad we talked about that subject as well :)

 

[Red Rum]

Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.


First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.


Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?


That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.


Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality. I'm very sorry for your troubles. When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision. But if the right woman wants to have my babies, do my job and let me take the maternity leave and suspend my career indefinitely, no problem. I'm all in favour.

 

[nabki]

...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

source

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.

It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

ok, you are probably referring to the hijab. i will talk about all the arab world except for saudi arabia: the hijab is a matter of honour and self respect for women. women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that. personally in the arab world when i see a woman who wears a proper hijab, not the total all face 'ninja' style hijab (some scholars actually prohibit that style, and i personally find some of them pretty scary), but the one where face is not hidden away, i respect her for the decision she has made, for the respect she has for herself and her society, for her belief that beauty is not mostly cosmetic, i respect her more. i respect her for her decision to do what in her opinion is right. very few women are forced into wearing the hijab, and statistically those who are forced to NOT wear the hijab are more that those who are forced to wear it ( excluding Saudi Arabia of course).
by the way, for those of you who want to start on Islamic repression of women, go on. women are allowed to wear silk and gold, men aren't even allowed to wear those materials in heaven. women don't have to spend a single penny of their money on their selves or their families. that is the duty of their fathers, brothers, husbands and other male relatives consecutively. men in sharia law are not allowed to be witnesses in certain court cases where women are the only acceptable witnesses.

 

[EL]

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. (...) I'm very sorry for your troubles. (...) yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder...

Speaking about constructive comments. I'll just ignore them and go on.

You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world ... about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality.

The goal is not to be the best, but to eliminate the problem. Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries?

When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision.

Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women?

 

[EL]

source

Here it is:

In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men.

women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that.

Freedom according to the law maybe, but what about the pressure from the society? Please also define what you mean by "dress as bimbos".

 

[kasse]

As far as I know, critizising religion is not allowed here.

 

[jaap de vries]

source

ok, you are probably referring to the hijab. i will talk about all the arab world except for saudi arabia: the hijab is a matter of honour and self respect for women. women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that. personally in the arab world when i see a woman who wears a proper hijab, not the total all face 'ninja' style hijab (some scholars actually prohibit that style, and i personally find some of them pretty scary), but the one where face is not hidden away, i respect her for the decision she has made, for the respect she has for herself and her society, for her belief that beauty is not mostly cosmetic, i respect her more. i respect her for her decision to do what in her opinion is right. very few women are forced into wearing the hijab, and statistically those who are forced to NOT wear the hijab are more that those who are forced to wear it ( excluding Saudi Arabia of course).
by the way, for those of you who want to start on Islamic repression of women, go on. women are allowed to wear silk and gold, men aren't even allowed to wear those materials in heaven. women don't have to spend a single penny of their money on their selves or their families. that is the duty of their fathers, brothers, husbands and other male relatives consecutively. men in sharia law are not allowed to be witnesses in certain court cases where women are the only acceptable witnesses.

Hey man its all all right. Its so great in y'alls country that such large numbers decide to hit the road and come to countries like Holland where they transport there intolerance in mosques paid for with my tax euros. Or kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland.
We have some of the http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/netherlands-radical-imam-teachers-to.html" for allowing gays in their country. These Imams are not from Saudi Arabia but usually from Morocco, sometimes Egypt. So I am sorry I don't believe these countries are tolerant and neither seem the people that come from there. It turned the Netherlands from a tolerant Country to a Intolerant Country which is to expect because intolerance always wins against intolerance as.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

 

[EL]

As far as I know, critizising religion is not allowed here.

Who is critizising religion?

 

[Cyrus]

Its funny to read the people from the Middle East try to say its a tolerant place.

Mmmmm,...yeah...No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.

 

[Cyrus]

Hey man its all all right. Its so great in y'alls country that such large numbers decide to hit the road and come to countries like Holland where they transport there intolerance in mosques paid for with my tax euros. Or kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland.
We have some of the http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/netherlands-radical-imam-teachers-to.html" for allowing gays in their country. These Imams are not from Saudi Arabia but usually from Morocco, sometimes Egypt. So I am sorry I don't believe these countries are tolerant and neither seem the people that come from there. It turned the Netherlands from a tolerant Country to a Intolerant Country which is to expect because intolerance always wins against intolerance as.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

 

[EL]

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

When they commit a crime, yes. Before that, freedom of speach most hold equally for everyone.

 

[mheslep]

I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

 

[jaap de vries]

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

Thats a good point and off course slightly subjective. I am no xenophobe so I don't care about clothing too much accept when they get in the way of public safety like a full cover ninja suit for women.

Outrageous speech definitely makes you a radical. The "outrageousness" depends on the frame of reference, which for me is the Netherlands or the US where I live now. I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries. However, were I am from it is not and sounds radical. doesn't matter if it is said in a suit and tie or in a traditional attire with sandals.

 

[Cyrus]

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

I think its pretty clear in the context of what I was talking about. The imams preaching hate speech in Europe. Box them up and ship them out.

I don't think a foreigner has the right to go to another country and trash the people there. If the do, they can get the hell out and leave.

 

[Cyrus]

When they commit a crime, yes. Before that, freedom of speach most hold equally for everyone.

Not hate speech. If you're not a citizen, and your spreading that kind of garbage, they should boot you back to abdu-dabi, or whatever desert they came from.

My patience for these islamic people is about as thin as it is for conservative christians in the US, non-existant. (Sorry, just being honest).

 

[nabki]

I think they should deport all these Islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds.

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

I am sure that saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries.

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?

the most easy way is looking for an explosive belt. or you could follow the bush method and torture everyone with slightly dark skin, or a beard, or sandals, or a headdress, or black hair, or a mid-eastern accent, etc etc etc...

Mmmmm,...yeah...No. Sorry. It's not a tolerant place. Not by a long shot. In many ways I'd say its a backwards place.

proof. you know, many people think that in the middle east it is normal to belch at a meal too. strange...

We have some of the most radical imams in Europe

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

 

[Cyrus]

immigrants to western countries don't have the right to implement sharia law on their own, that has to be done by a lawful Islamic government. as for deporting them, they will just become more radical. you can keep them and put them on trial. being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder, and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Yeah, but I don't care how crazy they become in their own country as long as they leave me alone in my own country. Also, your comments on homosexuality are laughable. A disorder?...

no it is not. most Arabs view Europeans as cultured and technologically advanced. most Arabs also believe that Europeans have morally gone backwards.
From an Islamic point of view, all humans are equal in Allah's eye except in iman(belief). calling other people lower that dogs and pigs is not acceptable. we are not proud of people who do such things. and we do not condole such acts of barbarism.

I think its funny that arabs, with very low moral standards on human living of their own people, say that europeans have 'gone backwards' by giving people equal rights that arabs themselves won't give. Hence, why I said earlier that it makes me laugh to hear anyone from the middle east try to defend it as 'tolerant'.

al-qardawi, the most respected and influential sunni(and probably muslim) scholar in the world was not allowed to enter Britain a few months ago. he was going to do a seminar about how terrorism, radicalism and such things are prohibited in islam...

Britain has way too many radical islamists that should have been deported long time ago IMO.

 

[EL]

being homosexual is not a preference, it is a disorder

Disorder? Why ffs would homosexuality be a disorder?
This tells me a lot about your conception of tolerance.
To me it is like saying that you are disordered just because you don't happen to like the same kind of cars as I do.

and you can't punish a disorder. what is punishable is homosexual acts.

Punishing homosexual acts is extreme intolerance, and no country which does so can ever call themselves civilized. (I'm not sure wheter you are defending this or not though?)

 

[Gokul43201]

Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).

Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.

For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

 

[lisab]

Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true. It is also pretty difficult for single women to get a visa to travel to many countries in the ME (even the UAE and Bahrain).

Polls show that, even by Middle Eastern standards, Egyptians and Jordanians tend to be more religious, chauvinistic and intolerant of homosexuality than most other countries in the region, while the Turks and Lebanese tend to be the least.

For reference, a recent global survey: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

The links at the top of the page go to the full reports...very interesting stuff!

 

[AhmedEzz]

I left this thread 2 days ago, and it was a cultural discussion about arab countries. I find a lot of tension and confusion in those comments. Please guys let's chill and respect one another for a second.
This is a very complicated topic you're talking about, that involves a lot of people and your comments may offend another person, even if you don't mean it.

"kill one of our most famous movie makers or, or bomb a bus in London, or a train in Spain, or an airport in Scotland. "
This is extreme ignorance, do you think Islamic world enshrines these actions? mate wake up...This was a terrorist cell and that's a matter that these countries need to deal with and not our fault.

"preaching how gays should be thrown of high buildings and that Europeans are lower then pigs and dogs for allowing gays in their country"

I have NEVER once in my whole life heard an Imam saying that. However, I do imagine that they exist but again this is not our fault or product. This is the responsibility of the country they are preaching in.

"I think they should deport all these islamic radicals back to their countries and freeze all their funds."

talk to me about tolerance

"Exactly how does one identify an Islamic radical? Outrageous speech? Beard and sandals? Combo?"
Its not the beards, anyone can have beards or shave them, its not the speech for even the most neutral can have a fiery speech and the most radical can have a nice quiet speech. I think its all about the person, who is he and how does he think. This is personal stuff and can't be generalised over a region. You can't say just because a German named Hitler did bad stuff than all Germans are bad.

"saying that Europeans are lower that pigs and dogs is perfectly fine in many Arabic countries"
Guys who tells you this stuff..please for argument's sake mind you words. We respect Europeans for en lighting the world with technology. Europeans have made many many contributions that helped mankind. However, they are very unfair regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict that should have ended a long time ago, even now still lies a chance but the world has to be just and fair.

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof?

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.

Its very sad how the media in the West is broadcasting messages of hate against Islam. What is more sad is that Europeans, who are supposed to be educated and objective are buying this stuff. Islam is an idea, a belief, a way of life and that is all that it is. Islam is not responsible for people who believe in it. Alot can do things in the name of Christianity and Jews but this does not by any way mean that the religion asked them to do it. Please no more throwing of accusations and be objective and consider what you are saying before actually saying it. I meant no offense to anyone and I hope this will be the rational discussion it once was.

 

[Cyrus]

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I don't tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

 

[EL]

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

For curiosity, let's have a look at the Global Gender Gap Report 2007 from the World Economic Forum: http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Gender%20Gap/GenderGap

The rankings of in total 128 countries,
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf ,
looks like:

1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Iceland
5. New Zeeland
6. Philippines
7. Germany
8. Denmark
9. Ireland
10. Spain
11. United Kingdom
12. Netherlands
...
31. USA
32. Kazakhstan
...
50. Uganda
51. France
...
73.China
...
84. Italy
...
114. India
115. Bahrain
116. Cameroon
117. Burkina Faso
118. Iran
119. Oman
120. Egypt
121. Turkey
122. Morocco
123. Benin
124. Saudi Arabia
125. Nepal
126. Pakistan
127. Chad
128. Yemen

I think we still have a lot to do in Sweden. You think women are not oppressed at all in Egypt...

 

[Red Rum]

Women and oppression

EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.

 

[Cyrus]

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

 

[Evo]

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/slave-in-the-garage/article55737.html

 

[EL]

EL, that's a very interesting table. It's not the subject of this thread, but perhaps instead of responding to my questions with questions of your own you listed some of the ways in which European women are repressed/oppressed/ discriminated against we can have a civilised discussion about it. And perhaps move it to another thread.

I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries?

This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women?

This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

 

[EL]

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

 

[Cyrus]

So you want to protest agains stupid rules by inventing stupid rules?

(Edit: ouch, a retoric question from me again. Should have just said something along: I don't think it is a good idea to protest against stupid rules by inventing stupid rules.)

Obviously, I wasnt being serious.

 

[Gokul43201]

"Someone mentioned not seeing many Egyptian women walk the streets unaccompanied. This is true"

proof?

Proof? I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself. Besides, the evidence is there in the link I provided.

Care should eb taken when providing resources, since many web resources contain many incorrect and biased information. Please try to find a credible source.

Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?

 

[AhmedEzz]

Are you calling the Pew Research Center an unreliable source?

I wasn't referring to the PEW RC, I was talking in general.

I've been to Egypt (and Turkey) and seen this myself

Where in Egypt did you go?

An interesting article I read today about a young Egyptian girl being sold into slavery by her parents. According to the Egyptian couple that bought her, it's common place in Egypt. I would assume among the very poor.

A year ago, I wrote a research paper called "Modern Slavery", so I know what you're talking about. But let me tell you this, its not just Egypt, its not just Africa, its a worldwide issue.

Just as foreigners have to wear a head scarf in the middle east, I think it should be manditory that people that visit the west are NOT allowed to wear a head scarf. Just out of spite.

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

Hmm, it seems you provide credible evidence, so let me re-phrase my words : women are sometimes oppressed in Egypt.

AhmedEzz, you need to realize that I don't tolerate imams that preach hate. If you move to another country, and you start saying these kinds of things then you should be kicked out. Dont confuse tolerance with sitting by while people try and erode tolerance in their country.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

I want to say a thing, there is Islam, there's the West and there's someone in the middle poisoning the relation between the two. I think that the major source of poison throughout the years has been the Arab-Israeli conflict, it should have ended a long time ago but it didn't. Extremists are using this to recruit more people to extremists cause, if this conflict is resolved -and i think it can- then the world would have ended a major source of corruption in the region.

 

[Red Rum]

Concur

I guess I should clearify my questions since some of them were quite retoric.

This was a reaction to (what I interpreted as) an attempt from you to say something along: women should not complain about getting lower sallaries since they have such great maternity benefits instead.
It is true that staying home with children should give a temporary flatten out of the sallary curve (since you do no progress at work while you are at home). My objection was though that you seemed to take for granted it should be the woman who stayed home with the children.
In Sweden (and I guess in many other western countries) the parents have the freedom to distribute the maternity benefits among themselves (almost) according to their own choice, but still it is usually the woman who stayes home for a majority of the days. If this was of free choice it would be no problem, but many times the reason is purely economic: the man earnes more money, and hence it is economically favourable for the family to let him work, which then leads to an even larger gap in sallaries between the genders.
What I mean is that in a society without repression of women, i.e. when the average sallaries of men and woman are the same, the "maternity benefits" argument is (at least from an economical point of view) gender neutral.You said that if a woman don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make, and I wanted to argue that this should hold for men too. If "choosing not to progress" was really a free choice there would be no problem, but then there should be about as many men as women choosing so. And this is definitely not what is observed.

This was an honest question for you, since I'm not really sure of your opinion here.

This is connected to the "choose not to progress" treated above.

And in fact I agree with all of your comments. However I disagree that the bias towards women taking career breaks to have children equates with oppression. I see it as acceptance of a biological fact. There are laws that prevent sex discrimination in salaries, but it is largely up to the individual to make sure that he or she gets what they deserve. In most of Europe men and women start on the same salary and salaries diverge mainly because men tend to get promoted more often or faster than women (although not in most of the companies I've worked with;75% of my bosses have been women). Most of the companies I worked with operate a results based appraisal (RBA) which tended to favour women who tend to be very focussed on specific tasks (I know I'm generalising, but I find women are very good at completing tasks while men tend to like starting tasks and taking them so far before they get bored and want to start something new). The RBA system favours people who like telling the organisation how good they are. Companies tend to reward as little as they can get away with. So in general if a divergence in salary occurs, it's down to the individual. And half the trick is writing targets that you know in advance can be easily achieved. After that everything else is a bonus. If discrimination against women is written into the salary, of course it's wrong and I'm sure in most cases illegal. Many of the jobs I've had in the last 20 years couldn't have been performed by women anyway simply because of the situations in which I worked. It's a sad fact that I can't hire a female trouble shooter because they would not be able to work in most of the cultural environments where they would be expected to work, e.g. most of Africa, The Middle east, China and many parts of south Asia. 70% of the people working at my level in Europe are women. If they get paid less than me it's because I have a lot more experience and live in a more expensive country.

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

 

[Cyrus]

Foreigners DON'T have to wear a head scarf except in Saudi Arabia and Iran. And what's wrong with a head scarf, that you want to ban it? Its a matter of beliefs so respect it and try to be understanding.

I don't agree with it, so there's no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Neither do I. I don't think anyone should tolerate those who are preaching hate. But before judging, I think you should know what they are saying. Not all preachers preach hate, preachers preach about love, life, morals, religion, and so and so...Western media tend to exaggerate and generalize alot. However, I know how well Europeans are educated and I know they are reasoning people, they should not believe everything that's being told to them.

Sorry, but what I am talking about are Imams and people on the streets clearly chanting hate. I am not talking about big bad media showing them in a bad light. I am talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.


Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets. They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them. They are as sick to me as a KKK rally.

 

[Cyrus]

But I think you should keep things in perspective. There are far more serious issues of oppression and inequality confronting women than work and pay conditions in Europe.

Id like to know what that is?

 

[AhmedEzz]

I don't agree with it, so there's no reason why I should be made to respect it. Its the fact that women have to wear a hijab or a chadoor, and men have to wear long pants and long sleve shirts, even if they are NOT muslim.

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Im talking about they themselves protesting death to so-and-so. I think you need to wake up to the reality of the situation though, as you are being very apologetic and trying to make excuses.

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And I'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

Just google the muhammad cartoon and europe and see what the (European) muslims were chanting on the streets.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

They should have rounded them up from their rally and deported them.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

 

[Cyrus]

Your agreement doesn't matter, I for one don't agree with what other religions and beliefs imply but I respect it. For if there was no respect for one another than where's the tolerance you have been crying for in the last pages?
Try to understand that you have misconceptions, don't be single-minded. Men don't HAVE to wear any of those things and women are not forced to wear anything except as I said in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

No no, I said the M.E. should have tolerance. I.e. I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if I am a woman), or long pants (if I am a man), visiting a country that's NOT my religion. That is tolerance. Your trying to turn it around by saying I should somehow respect the fact that I am forced to participate in something I don't agree with, nor observe. I don't have misconceptions, I am from the middle east (iran).

Let me get this straight, you are banning the right to protest? Imagine if your country was under siege from another country, won't you protest? if you feel that China is screwing your country and your people over and over again, won't you protest?...mate, I think its YOU who needs to wake up.
And I'm not making excuses, and if I was making them please tell for what?

You need to pay attention to exactly what I said. I never said 'protest'. I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave. Were not going to play hypothetical games here about being under siege. No 'country' was under siege for those cartoons. You're example is weak.

Muslims value greatly their religion and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and they can't and will not tolerate such actions from anyone. This is a matter of respect as I referred earlier.

Ahem, what's that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone. I don't care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country.

Please lower your tone, I am presenting reasonable and rational arguments and all you say is "kick em out" "Ban them" "I am sick of this", etc... this is provoking, so please stop using this tone.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational. You are trying to convolute your argument with weak arguments to try and distract from what I am showing you. But don't worry, my tone isn't even close to being loud, if it were -you'd know it.

Look its really this simple. If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country. I.e. you become 'westernized'. If you don't want to become westernized, then DONT MOVE to a western country. No one is forcing a person from the ME to move to europe or the USA.

Now, don't get me wrong. The middle east has many great aspects to it. Food, culture, history, art, architecture. HOWEVER, this means NOTHING about TOLERANCE. We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocU5x_03MDM

Is this 'big bad media'? I don't think so...it speaks for itself.

 

[AhmedEzz]

I should not be forced to wear a head scarf (if I am a woman), or long pants (if I am a man), visiting a country that's NOT my religion. That is tolerance

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

I said if they go into the street saying 'death to so-and-so' when they are living a country that is not their home country, they should get out and leave

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

whats that about tolerance? I have no problem with them praising islam and muhammad all day long, so long as they sell me oil, and leave me alone.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

I don't care how radical or nuts they are, provided they keep it to them selves in their own country

Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Actually, my argument has been perfectly rational.

I can see that.

If you move to another country, then you are expect to adopt the lifestyle of that country.

I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

We need more moderates in the ME like you to weed out the nutjobs there though.

I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before...

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

 

[Cyrus]

don't you EVER listen...I told you three times that foreigners as well as people DON'T as in NOT COMPELLED as in NOT FORCED to wear anything with exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Yes, I am well aware of what you said. Now, do you really think a bunch of westerners running around in short shorts and bikinis is going to fly in any middle eastern country? They still have to dress conservatively.

What you are EXACTLY saying here, is that people should not protest in a foreign country. Many of those are nationals by the way. So technically it IS their country, not necessarily their country of birth but they carry the nationality and have the every right as any citizen.

I was clear in what I said. In the case that it is their country, they should be put in jail.

Your words are totally irrelevant to the case. Some European countries insulted ALL Muslims, and it was a reaction to your actions. It was the first time the religion was being insulted so provocatively and so widely.

No, it wasnt. The middle east produces cartoons of jews much worse all the time. Weak argument.

Stop using provocative language, you keep using provocative words. You don't see me going on saying that Europeans are morally corrupt, lunatics, cold-blooded or double-faced...I didn't and not going to insult and you should do so as well, for the sake of a meaningful argument.

Again, I am not being provocative. I am dead serious in what I said, I am not just saying it to get you worked up, and I am not going to change what I said if you don't like it -sorry.

I agree, if anyone moves to country he should blend in the society. But what does that have to do with anything that we've been saying?

I hope your not serious? It has everything to do with what were saying! People in the streets saying death to so-and-so in a country that's not theirs to begin with!

I agree but let me say this "Nutjobs"/extremism is not just in the ME, its worldwide, the media tends to shed the light on our extremists, like they weren't there before...

And WORLDWIDE includes the middle east.

I still hold to my argument that Egypt and some countries in the ME are pretty modest and tolerant countries.

No, its modest and toleranct, COMPARED to other ME countries. Its not tolerant compared to the rest of the world, and that's the real benchmark.

EDIT: I just saw the video, and I must say, you just picked the dirtiest example and tried to generalize it. This is by no way, by no means at all, Islam. Don't buy this crap, its not for real. Not for real at all...and by saying "protesting" I NEVER meant what I just saw. This was barbaric and these nutjobs are NOT Muslims, this is what I mean when I was referring to those in the middle poisoning the relations between the West and Islam. Again, mate, don't believe this stuff, it ain't for real.

No, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones I am talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

 

[AhmedEzz]

o, its very REAL. And THOSE people, are the ones I am talking about. Not the every day muslim person that blends into european society and keeps to themsleves. You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

Well, that doesn't refer in one way or another to Islam. Just as Jewish nutjobs and Christian nutjobs don't have anything to do with Judaism and Christianity as well. Its an internal affair of the country that hosts them but it relate to Islam the religion...I think all this time, we were having a miscommunication, I was never defending those people, or giving them excuses. We have the Muslim brotherhood if you heard, and we are suffering just as much as you do.
Don't apply my words on those wacks, my words and defense are for the REAL Muslims, those who are peaceful, moral, gentle and good people.
Islam teaches you all about peace, kindness, morals, life, after-life, love, tolerance, justice, work, dedication and faith. Islam is not responsible for those who call themselves Muslims.
A Muslims, like myself, are asked to 1) believe that "there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet", 2)pray,3)fast,4)do charity and 5)pilgrim-if one can-...these are the 5 principals of Islam. That's it, nothing else...it doesn't at all enshrine violence,terror,fear and corruption and all this stuff that you hear about in the news. Islam forbids killing civilians for one.

You need to wake up and realize that after 9-11 people ARE going to take these people seriously and see them as a threat to stability.

Yes my friend but don't link this to Islam. As I said we are suffering as much as you do from them. They are nutjobs, crazy, radical, terrorists, extremists, call them whatever you like but they are NOT Muslims.

It is a pleasure talking to you, because a lot of people really have a gray look, they can't tell what is the difference and what is Islam. I'm really happy with this discussion because i feel that this is what we need the most, a cross-cultural discussion to clear out the misconceptions that are ruining our relations with the West...sorry for such a long post,

 

[Cyrus]

I'll bring the Chi if you bring Ruby, and well smoke a sheesha and discuss this while she dances for us.

http://tinypic.com/ic1y0o.jpg

Well, also have to stop by lebanon and get some food. There food is the best in the world. Better than Iran, by far.

 

[AhmedEzz]

that's a joke or you're being sarcastic?

 

[Cyrus]

What, you don't like Ruby?

 

[AhmedEzz]

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

 

[Cyrus]

I thought you were making fun of what I said, that's all...Ruby's cute. I don't like Eastern dancing, its lame.

Ok, I'll bring some western infadels for you, as long as you bring me Ruby.

 

[AhmedEzz]

what does infadels mean? I'll try to look for Hayfaa if I couldn't find Ruby.