News Is it Safe to Visit Arab Countries?

[jaap de vries]

"for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago."

Actually in a democracy you are responsible for your own government however collectively, so you only have a small amount of power.

 

[jaap de vries]

my friend, let's imagine that the European union kicked the Netherlands out and no support is received from it. Then let's imagine that the English declared war on you and after a couple of decades of war with the Brits, the Netherlands finally made peace. However, its resources has been exhausted and it has no economy, no true army, the society is divided and broken and many many good people died or fled from the country. Can you imagine how long it would take to rebuild such country to the current Netherlands? That is probably why I can't compare Egypt's human rights record to the Netherlands'.

Just throw in the France, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and you just described about 800 years of our history.

I am aware of the history and the unfair hands of cards that have been dealt throughout history. However, and I'll repeat it again. Egypt as a country is not known for its tolerance. This does not mean that Egyptians aren't friendly or hospitable.

 

[vanesch]

How can you be serious if the only thing you do besides drinking beer is brewing it? And we all know that this is all anyone ever does in Belgium (assuming it even exists in the first place).

You got me !

 

[nabki]

well said flowerthrower. one thing i have to say is we do have freedom to talk just no freedom of speech. everyone criticizes the institute they work in and how it should be done, and everyone discusses politics. note that anyone in the ME has access to: al-jazeera (indipendent, qatar) alarabiya (saudi) alhurra (gorge bush) al-fayhaa ( iraqi resistance) russia today, CNN, ABC, CNBC, al-manar (hezbullah) palestine tv (fatah), al-quds TV (hamas) and BBC to name but a few. so we get a pretty wide representation of international views.
oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

 

[jaap de vries]

oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

Yeah Ahmed any change you are a MKHT?

 

[nabki]

i think ahmed knows what i am talking about.

 

[AhmedEzz]

i think ahmed knows what i am talking about.

not really...but I'm an second year engineering student.Besides, i don't think its decent to try and refer to arabic words that no one can understand on an English forum.

Just throw in the France, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and you just described about 800 years of our history.

I am aware of the history and the unfair hands of cards that have been dealt throughout history.

Great, can u tell me how many years it took you to be in the luxurious state you're in? Now take out the EU support and imagine how more it could have taken..

Egypt as a country is not known for its tolerance. This does not mean that Egyptians aren't friendly or hospitable.

How can you know, what is your source of info? Have you ever been to Egypt? People make a country that is managed by the government, so when you say Egypt "as a country" what are you referring to?

 

[jaap de vries]

Great, can u tell me how many years it took you to be in the luxurious state you're in? Now take out the EU support and imagine how more it could have taken..

Actually the Netherlands has since the beginning been the largest contributor per capita to the EU somehow the Dutch people are to stupid to realize that we get hardly anything for that in return and that most important decisions are made in Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4721307.stm
http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10002079.shtml

How can you know, what is your source of info? Have you ever been to Egypt? People make a country that is managed by the government, so when you say Egypt "as a country" what are you referring to?

If I say Egypt as a Country I mean the government and their policies. and my sources there are UN, human right watch, etc.

 

[AhmedEzz]

So you mean that the Egyptian government is a tolerant one...hmm, the gov. is not tolerant in with the opposition and the radicals and I agree with you there. However, the government is very tolerant with foreigners and tourists are more than welcomed which the original question. Your reference to the Egyptian policies with regards to the opposition is what started this useless debate, you should have made yourself clearer and maybe stuck to the subject.
However, nice having a debate with you :)

 

[Red Rum]

An interesting discussion that has strayed significantly from the original question. I've lived, worked and holidayed in a few Arab countries. A lot of my friends from my student days emigrated to places like Iraq , Libya and Saudi Arabia to make money at the start of their careers. At the time the economy of the country where I grew up was on its knees and jobs for university qualified people were hard to find. I moved to Saudi Arabia where I worked on a dairy farm and ran a milk and yoghurt processing plant. The farm itself was effectively a compound similar to those that housed foreigners in the major cities, but completely isolated. Before I moved there I signed an agreement that I would respect the laws of the state with particular reference to not indulging in illegal drugs (including alcohol) and fraternising with women other than my wife and mother. And since I signed a single contract that effectively meant agreeing to 2 years of celibacy. In theory at least. As Christians and westerners we were forbidden contact with most moslems lest we infect them with our heathen ways. On the other hand, we were treated quite liberally compared to the guest workers from third world coutries. The Saudis at the time I was there still hadn't quite mastered the distinction between slaves, servants and employees. Most western exapts living there are sent home for up to a month three times per year for their own sanity. I have been back there a few times as a consultant and I can say that things appear to have disimproved. The system has become more repressive. The laws, which were relaxed a little during and after the Gulf War, are more rigorously enforced and the amount of censorship has increased. Meanwhile women are repressed as much as ever and still are not allowed to drive or have any contact with any member of the opposite sex other than their father or husband (or brothers under certain circumstances) once they are over 14. Meanwhile, with the rise of militant islamic fundamentalism and its manipulation, the country has become a lot more dangerous for foreigners.
The authorities tend to not want to know what goes on in the western compounds, but like all countries, you never break the law in any visible way. If you do, you suffer the consequences. For us at the time the greatest risk was to be caught brewing or distilling, which was punishable by jail and flogging, but could usually be preempted by simple deportation. In extreme cases the punishment was enheading, but I only ever saw that happen to third country nationals. I know of a few nurses who were deported and had prostitute stamped in their passports for being seen in public with members of the opposite sex. If course I broke the laws of that country regularly but discretely.

I've visited countries like Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt as a tourist and can say that I found the people mostly very friendly and helpful and these countries have a lot to offer, despite their politics and governments. I highly recommend them, but if you visit them, have respect for the laws and cultures of the land. You're a guest in their country, so behave appropriately.

 

[AhmedEzz]

I agree with what you said, but something really bothers me that I'm not sure whether its true or not. The thing is that when someone refers to the middle east people usually think what RedRum just described, oppression and radicalism. But i think that people should realize that not ALL the countries are like that. For example there's Egypt, Tunisia, Morroco, Jordan and Lebanon who are liberal countries that are not oppresive or radical at all.
Westerners think of the Middle East as one country with one thinking and one radicalism, but this is not true. Just as Europe, EU countries are not the same. The Dutch are not like the Spanish or the French and so on. So I hope that this becomes clearer for you guys, if one refers to Iran as a radical country in the Middle East, it doesn't mean that all countries are like that.

 

[Red Rum]

Middle east

Don't get me wrong, Ahmedzz. I may not have been entirely happy with my conditions in Saudi, but I was there by choice and benefited in a whole host of ways, so I made no complaints about it. I found many Saudis to be very friendly and open and was invited into the homes of plenty of Saudis with whom I came into contact through business. I think Islam is a fine philosophy of how to live your life cleanly and without enforcing your beliefs on others. I admire Arab culture and achievements and I think the various dialects of Arabic can be quite beautiful. There are so many things about the various countries in the middle east and north Africa that I like that I could write for days. But our cultures differ and we have to remember that when we interact, respect our differences and concentrate on what we have in common.

 

[EL]

For example there's Egypt (...) who are liberal countries that are not oppresive or radical at all.

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though?

 

[russ_watters]

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though?

Everything is relative. To someone from the ME, Egypt might be liberal. To someone from the West, Egypt is still pretty repressive.

A century on, women have made many strides towards to his, and their, goal.

They can vote; they are significant part of the workforce and there are now two women in the Egyptian cabinet.

But they're not allowed to travel abroad without the permission of their husbands; it's hard for them to initiate divorce; and they can't - like Qassem Amin - become judges.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/483309.stm

Long way to go.

 

[AhmedEzz]

That's actually the opposite of what I have heard from friends visiting Egypt. In fact they were pretty shocked about the oppression of women in Egypt. For example, they hardly saw a single woman anywhere on the streets. I guess this is not in agreement with your impression though?

I don't have an impression, I live there. Women are free to do anything except maybe prostitution or running naked in the street or so but women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt. This is a direct result of misconceptions and pre-conceptions. In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men. Probably this is because of ignorance and old habits but this is not the country's making. And this definately does not define oppression.

 

[Red Rum]

tradition versus law

Everything is relative. To someone from the ME, Egypt might be liberal. To someone from the West, Egypt is still pretty repressive.
Long way to go.

Correct. And the difference between the treatment of women in Egypt and Saudi is that in Saudi the repression is enshrined in law. What westerners may perceive as repression in Egypt has more to do with tradition. Women may be technically free to do whatever they wish, but their tradition means that in many areas they will behave much more conservatively than women in the west. Remember that in many conservative parts of Europe women could also have been considered to be repressed until relatively recently.

 

[EL]

I don't have an impression, I live there. Women are free to do anything except maybe prostitution or running naked in the street or so but women are NOT oppressed at all in Egypt.

Good to hear. I have to talk to my friends again.

In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men. Probably this is because of ignorance and old habits but this is not the country's making. And this definately does not define oppression.

? This is clearly oppression!

 

[EL]

Remember that in many conservative parts of Europe women could also have been considered to be repressed until relatively recently.

I would say women are still, more or less, repressed everywhere in the world.

 

[Red Rum]

I would say women are still, more or less, repressed everywhere in the world.

Even in Sweden?

 

[EL]

Even in Sweden?

Sure. Just watch the sallary statistics in any western country.

 

[Red Rum]

Sure. Just watch the sallary statistics in any western country.

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression? In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues. I grant you there may be a glass ceiling in many businesses concerning womens' promotion. But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot. Just that each sex enjoys different benefits. My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.

 

[EL]

Percentile differences in salary equate with repression?

Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.

In a country where a bus driver earns marginally less than a university professor, I would have thought that was the least of your issues.

First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.

But I don't hear any of the women in my company complaining, especially with the maternity benefits available. And I don't mean this as a cheap shot.

Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?

Just that each sex enjoys different benefits.

That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.

My sector happens to be dominated by women and if they don't progress in their careers it's usually a choice they make.

Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

 

[AhmedEzz]

they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men

? This is clearly oppression!

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this. Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex and so on...but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.
And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.

 

[EL]

Don't be naive mate, oppression is much much worse than this.

It seems we are not agreeing here.

Oppression for example, can be when women can't go to the beach just because they are women, or because when women can't get a job just because of her sex, or when a woman can get beaten up by her husband and the law doesn't fully cover her up or when the women can't get adequate education just because of their sex

...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.

It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

And I only referred to the far South only, but in the rest of Egypt its fine.

Sounds good. (Although we seem to have very different opinions of what counts as "fine".)

 

[vanesch]

I moved the EU-related posts to a new thread "EU stability" because they really got totally off-topic here...

 

[AhmedEzz]

We don't have that much of a difference as what counts as fine, yes what i referred to maybe a sign of oppression but what i meant to say is that there are different cases and levels of oppression. Oppression is a word that the media tends to use alot, so when one says that women are oppressed in Egypt others get the impression of the real cases of oppression which I referred to in the previous post, which of course is not the case in Egypt. Minor oppression can best describe the case in Egypt. Which I am not fine with, of course, but still not bothered too much since as I said, these are old habits that will probably end with newer generations and proper education.
Glad we talked about that subject as well :)

 

[Red Rum]

Men and women getting different average sallaries for the same jobs is a sign of repression.


First, if "a country" is ment to be Sweden, then you have just fallen for the myths. A university professor of course earns much more. Anyway, different sallaries for different kind of jobs is no problem. It is when men and women get different sallaries for the same kind of jobs which equates with repression. Also, it could be a problem if men and women are not given the same oportunities to advance to the better payed jobs.


Why should maternity benefits be more worth for a women than for a man?


That's been kind of the slogan for the last hundred years.


Why do you think more women than men "choose" not to progress?

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality. I'm very sorry for your troubles. When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision. But if the right woman wants to have my babies, do my job and let me take the maternity leave and suspend my career indefinitely, no problem. I'm all in favour.

 

[nabki]

...or cannot ware certian kind of clothes that men are allowed to, or are not allowed to speak to the opposite sex in the same way as men can...

source

but the clothing and socializing aspect that I referred to is no more than just tradition that will go away by time and newer more educated generations.

It still exists, and it is still opression. (Opression can of course exist without being supported by the government.)

ok, you are probably referring to the hijab. i will talk about all the arab world except for saudi arabia: the hijab is a matter of honour and self respect for women. women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that. personally in the arab world when i see a woman who wears a proper hijab, not the total all face 'ninja' style hijab (some scholars actually prohibit that style, and i personally find some of them pretty scary), but the one where face is not hidden away, i respect her for the decision she has made, for the respect she has for herself and her society, for her belief that beauty is not mostly cosmetic, i respect her more. i respect her for her decision to do what in her opinion is right. very few women are forced into wearing the hijab, and statistically those who are forced to NOT wear the hijab are more that those who are forced to wear it ( excluding Saudi Arabia of course).
by the way, for those of you who want to start on Islamic repression of women, go on. women are allowed to wear silk and gold, men aren't even allowed to wear those materials in heaven. women don't have to spend a single penny of their money on their selves or their families. that is the duty of their fathers, brothers, husbands and other male relatives consecutively. men in sharia law are not allowed to be witnesses in certain court cases where women are the only acceptable witnesses.

 

[EL]

EL, that's hardly the most constructive of posts. (...) I'm very sorry for your troubles. (...) yet you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder...

Speaking about constructive comments. I'll just ignore them and go on.

You live in one of the most progressive and equal opportunity countries in the world ... about women being repressed by lack of opportunity or equality.

The goal is not to be the best, but to eliminate the problem. Are you saying there is no problem with repression of women in the western countries?

When my workload doubles because two of my colleagues are on well merited maternity leave, I don't complain about it because they are entitled to it. If this means their careers may have to take a back seat, that is their decision.

Why do you think the majority of the people who "takes a back seat" are women?

 

[EL]

source

Here it is:

In the far South, in Luxor for example, Women are not as free as they are in the rest of Egypt. By that I mean that they have to wear "adequate" clothing and be less social with men.

women here have the 'freedom' to dress a bimbos but most have the self-respect and intellect to not do that.

Freedom according to the law maybe, but what about the pressure from the society? Please also define what you mean by "dress as bimbos".