Is it Time for the US Government to Ban Gun Ownership?

[Averagesupernova]

The whole thing comes down to misinformation and a skewed image of what actually goes on (and doesn't go on) in the good old USA. I just can't seem to shake the idea that the non-US residents participating in this thread don't have a clear vision of how we live here in the states. It's obvious to me that they just cannot imagine life here simply because they have not experienced it. Kind of like a person who has been deaf since birth cannot possibly imagine what it's like to be able to hear. I am mostly referring to people with lifestyles like Turbo-1 and myself, both rural. I suspect the anti-gunners in this thread would be completely lost living like Turbo-1 and I. The USA is not like the average European landscape. There are some VERY wide open spaces here and the honest truth of it is that if guns were actually banned there are many places that the ban would not be enforced. It would not be considered worth the local law enforcements time to do so. The attitude would be, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So what if John Q. Public has a gun? He isn't bothering anyone so we'll leave him alone.

 

[gravenewworld]

Assult weapons are no longer banned grave.

And that is not the sprit of why we have guns in the constitution. Its was put there explicity to keep the government in check. At the time of its writing, all citizens had full military weapons (muskets).

I think the constitution had in mind what exists in Switzerland. I.e. everyone having a full-on assult weapon in their house.-the standard military weapon of our time.

Do you know what one of the deadliest weapons in WWII was?

It was the American M1 Garand. The garand only had a 8 round capacity. Many war historians credit the garand not only for American dominance in WWII, but a big reason for winning the entire war. To say that limiting round capacity on a gun will make it less effective or make one less be able to defend themselves really isn't that true at all.

It should probably also be pointed out that having a clip of 5 still makes it easy to kill 1 person. Humans are not rhinos, you don't need to shoot them more than once, or maybe twice, or maybe 9 times (lol 50 cent). Regardless of how many bullets you have, you only need 1 to kill somebody, which means the law would do absolutely nothing. Next thing you know, gangs are making extended clips (don't people already do this?) and the media would pick it up as "assault weapons now with assault clips!"

Having a gun makes it easy to kill one person. Preventing people from having dozens of clips prevents mass homicide. How could you make an extended clip if you can only afford to buy 1?

 

[scorpa]

It's obvious to me that they just cannot imagine life here simply because they have not experienced it. Kind of like a person who has been deaf since birth cannot possibly imagine what it's like to be able to hear. I am mostly referring to people with lifestyles like Turbo-1 and myself, both rural. I suspect the anti-gunners in this thread would be completely lost living like Turbo-1 and I.

A good solid point, that has been brought up multiple times in this thread and keeps getting ignored...perhaps people are just missing it due to the fast pace of the thread or maybe just maybe no one can argue with it . I full heartedly agree with you. Unless you've lived that life you won't quite understand it. I am thrilled to be going back to it this summer

 

[Cyrus]

Do you know what one of the deadliest weapons in WWII was?

It was the American M1 Garand. The garand only had a 8 round capacity. Many war historians credit the garand not only for American dominance in WWII, but a big reason for winning the entire war. To say that limiting round capacity on a gun will make it less effective or make one less be able to defend themselves really isn't that true at all.

So, are you prepared to supply me with high powered M1's? Guns that will shoot through police body armor.

Having a gun makes it easy to kill one person. Preventing people from having dozens of clips prevents mass homicide.

Having more stringent checks before they sell you a gun prevents mass homicide. The fact that you can get a gun and now your fit for life to have a gun is the problem. You should have periodic evaluations to show that you haven't gone bonkers 10 years down the road now that your stockpiled with weapons. Pilots have these checks yearly.

How could you make an extended clip if you can only afford to buy 1?

You'll have to ask whoever it was that gave you that reply, it wasnt me.

 

[ShawnD]

How could you make an extended clip if you can only afford to buy 1?

The idea is that you don't buy extended clips, you just make them. Or if you're too smart to be tweaking stuff you need to rely on, you could just buy it from another country over the internet. Did you know some people buy cigarettes on the internet just so they don't pay $8 for a pack? How about coca leaves (cocaine)? Did you know you can buy ephedrine online? Did you know you can buy prescription drugs online, without a prescription? You can't stop people from buying things they really want. If it's not available in the local market, criminals will search for it online and eventually find it.

Putting taxes on clips will do literally nothing to prevent mass homicides since people can just as easily buy those same clips from another country.

 

[gravenewworld]

So, are you prepared to supply me with high powered M1's? Guns that will shoot through police body armor.

actually to this day the M1 is a popular civilian fire arm. you can easily buy rifles that have just as much, if not more power than the M1

Having more stringent checks before they sell you a gun prevents mass homicide. The fact that you can get a gun and now your fit for life to have a gun is the problem. You should have periodic evaluations to show that you haven't gone bonkers 10 years down the road now that your stockpiled with weapons. Pilots have these checks yearly.

Would more stringent check have stopped the guy who did the VT shootings? Probably not. He had no criminal record. The only thing that would have stopped him is if there was a law that said you needed a written form stating that you passed a psychiatric evaluation before you tried to buy a gun. Do you ever think this would really happen? Probably not. If they would try to enact this, then gun owners would complain of having to pay the doctor's bill for the evaluation.

The idea is that you don't buy extended clips, you just make them. Or if you're too smart to be tweaking stuff you need to rely on, you could just buy it from another country over the internet. Did you know some people buy cigarettes on the internet just so they don't pay $8 for a pack? How about coca leaves (cocaine)? Did you know you can buy ephedrine online? Did you know you can buy prescription drugs online, without a prescription? You can't stop people from buying things they really want. If it's not available in the local market, criminals will search for it online and eventually find it.

Putting taxes on clips will do literally nothing to prevent mass homicides since people can just as easily buy those same clips from another country.

BUT IT WOULD STILL BE ILLEGAL. Sure you can buy cigs online, however it is highly illegal. It is extremely illegal to buy cigs in another state for a cheaper price then bring them over the border in your state to sell them to your friends.

Criminals will indeed do it. But tell me this, was the VT shooter a criminal before he went on his rampage? NO! Sure making things illegal provides no guarantee. But it does make things more difficult!

 

[Cyrus]

Would more stringent check have stopped the guy who did the VT shootings? Probably not. He had no criminal record. The only thing that would have stopped him is if there was a law that said you needed a written form stating that you passed a psychiatric evaluation before you tried to buy a gun. Do you ever think this would really happen? Probably not. If they would try to enact this, then gun owners would complain of having to pay the doctor's bill for the evaluation.

Probably YES! He was taking medication and his teachers/students said he was not normal and needed some professional help.

 

[gravenewworld]

Probably YES! He was taking medication and his teachers/students said he was not normal and needed some professional help.

and how would a gun store clerk know of this? Due to HIPPA laws, finding out what medication a person is on isn't easy. how would a gun store clerk know of what his teachers and students said of him?

 

[Cyrus]

Obviously, the guy at the store is not qualified to perform an evaluation. Does the pilot get his medical from the baggage handler?

 

[ShawnD]

BUT IT WOULD STILL BE ILLEGAL. Sure you can buy cigs online, however it is highly illegal. It is extremely illegal to buy cigs in another state for a cheaper price then bring them over the border in your state to sell them to your friends.

You're right, it is illegal. Very illegal. But people still do it.
My point is that there's no sense in making a law that you can choose to ignore and have no punishment for ignoring. You can buy cigarettes online because there's no way the government can track things like that. The box doesn't have any markings to say what it is, and the company selling the box of cigarettes doesn't need to tell anything to the government because companies in foreign countries do not obey local laws. The government can't just randomly search packages coming into the country to see if they contain tax-free cigarettes since doing that is illegal (searches need probable cause). So what exactly does having a law prohibiting the purchase of cigarettes from another country do? Absolutely nothing. And neither would a law putting huge tax on clips; people will just buy them from another country and there's nothing the government can do to stop it.

faux edit: before you claim that the government can require serial numbers on the clips and require them to be registered, that would be an after-the-fact action. By the time the police destroy the illegal clips, the killer has already used them to kill 30 people before killing himself.

 

[J77]

Of course it should be prohibited.

I'd point to the "Interesting Gun Safety Lesson" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131578

and the "Man tries to rob woman in wheel chair!" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131334

and the "Canadian College Shootings" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=132146

and the locked thread on the recent tragedy: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=165992

for my opinions.

 

[Monique]

that study is concerned with TOTAL deaths and TOTAL homocides. The US has a much larger population that any of the other countries listed. Did you take this into account in your graph?

If you read the data correctly, you'll see that the deaths are counted per 100,000:

International Violent Death Rate Table (Death rates are per 100,000)

 

[cristo]

that study is concerned with TOTAL deaths and TOTAL homocides. The US has a much larger population that any of the other countries listed. Did you take this into account in your graph?

Is it not also pretty obvious that it's not a total number of homicides, since Northern Ireland has a greater number of homicides, on that graph, than the United States?

 

[Monique]

It would be interesting to try and correlate the rates of firearm vs other means of homocide and suicide with gunownership, but I don't have time to do that now.

I can't withhold you the data, here it is. The firearm suicide rates are nicely correlated with gun ownership. The firearm homocide rate correlation is less clear, you'd need some statistics to interpret that.

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/1914/statistics2xp5.png

 

[J77]

I'm never convinced about statistics w.r.t. political arguments; ie. both sides seem to be able to find an appropriate stat to bolster their argument.

However, on this issue, surely it's common-sense that less guns mean less gun related incidents!

And, I don't buy counter-arguments such as less cigarettes cause less lung cancer -- sure they do; however, that's not a reason to not ban something else which is obviously harmful.

e2a:

There are some VERY wide open spaces here and the honest truth of it is that if guns were actually banned there are many places that the ban would not be enforced.

How does a "wide open space" necessitate the use of a gun?

Sure, there would be many places a ban would not be enforced -- like there are many places were people do illegal things on a regular basis -- however, this doesn't mean that a ban should not be put in place. Which amongst other things would cut down on the availability of a deadly weapon from the highstreet.

 

[Art]

"The Zimmerman telegram?" You know better than that..

Meaning? Are you suggesting this wasn't the key event that led to America's entry?
Wilson who was steadfastly anti-war (and the American public even more so, 2.5 m of whom were born in Germany and a further 5.8 m had German parents - add to that the anti-British Irish from a total pop of 92 m) became aware of the text of the Zimmerman telegram 3 Mar made his decision to enter the war the 21 Mar and made his war speech to congress on the 2nd April. Prior to the telegram Wison's nightmare scenario had been a decisive British / French victory (hence his 'policy of peace without victory') as the US saw Britain at the time as a probable military threat. This distrust of Britain was also much in evidence in WW2.

It's also worth mentioning that America never did fully join in WW1. She declared war only on Germany and not on Germany's allies.

Give us the rest of the story --- Wilson may have been a dreamer, but he knew better than to turn U.S. troops over piecemeal to Haig and Joffre to be turned into rat fodder.

I don't disagree and I believe he was correct but that doesn't change the fact that America's contribution on the ground was relatively minor which is the point of contention.

The French 75 was at that time the best field piece in the world (the German 77, a copy, was by some accounts as good), there was reticence to risk capture of John Browning's masterpieces (some sources say the M-2 was actually there, some don't --- never got that one resolved --- same-same re. BAR), hence the use of the Chauchat --- John Bull wouldn't license or otherwise allow us the use of the Lewis gun. We weren't too happy either.

Again I don't disagree but it doesn't change the fact that America at that time simply wasn't well enough equipped to be a major influence in the outcome of the war

Wilhelm saw "the writing on the wall" --- at which point the last German offensive of the war was launched to end things before the Yanks got to the front in force; it involved overextension of supply lines through torn up country, but bogged down short of any strategically decisive point (Paris?). When the allied counterattack took place, the German army was out of men, food, ammunition, and everything but willpower to conduct an orderly time-consuming, fighting withdrawal to lines still well within France.

The key point here is the German supply situation. The British blockade (which Wilson btw had up until American entry objected to in the strongest possible terms) brought Germany to it's knees and had helped foment serious unrest on the German home front. In fact America's biggest contribution in WW1 was it's subsequent support of the blockade backed up by export embargos on food to countries suspected of supplying Germany. The final push by Germany was a last ditch attempt to win the war before support for it at home completely disintegrated which is in fact what happened as Germany were never defeated fully on the field of battle.

Which bled themselves to death in Flanders, on the Isonzo, and (sh*t, forgot the name of the damned swamp) on the eastern front.

Precisely, or more importantly it bled their economies to death which sent them into decline. A lesson from history the US would do well to learn from.

After Kursk, I'd call it (Hitler vs. Stalin) an even match, but at the same time Joe's temper tantrums were always about "When are you opening the second front?" Brinksmanship? Or, that close? Dunno.

After Kursk the Germans were finished with the end being accelerated by Hitler's order of no retreat. German war munitions production was struggling whereas Russia's output was growing exponentially.

Okay, little "horseshoe nail" history: let's say that following Battle of Britain, some sort of "peace" arrangement is reached between UK and Germ. (iffy); Stalin vs. Hitler (w' no distractions --- peace deal pulls Italy from N. Afr. and Greece) turns into a very even match; Joe wins, he's not going to stop at the Rhine. This all depends on FDR being reined in by Congress re. Europe --- leaves him nothing to gain by starting a brawl in the Pacific --- "what ifs" don't really constitute arguments, but it's probably safe to say that the course of European history would have been radically different without U.S. involvement.

The possibility of a peace deal between Germany and England would not have been so iffy. Although they fought 2 wars they liked and respected each other. After WW1 the British actually saw France as their most likely next protagonist (many still do ) and like Hitler the British establishment was vehemently anti-communist.

You're still a long way from showing how the US second amendment saved Europe's butts.

 

[turbo]

If you were ever in a shoot out against a bunch of people in a gang, you would probably be dead anyway. You wouldn't last to be able to use 300 bullets, unless you carried an assault rifle, which are banned anyway.

This is absolutely untrue. You can own a fully-automatic rifle or machine pistol, not just the semi-auto, cosmetically similar versions popularly called "assault rifles". You have to apply for the permit, undergo a background check and then pay a registration fee for each such weapon that you buy. The paperwork for each purchase has to be completed and filed by a Federal Firearms License holder who has paid the annual $500 occupational tax to deal in Class III weapons. That's all. ANY FFL holder (even the guy at the local pawn shop or small gun shop) can buy or sell Class III weapons including fully-automatic weapons, as long as they pay the $500 occupational tax to the BATF. (That fee comes due in July of every year, in case you think that I'm blowing smoke.)

 

[siddharth]

Yes, it says that, but gun applications in 2002 were only 7.8 million, and the year 2003-2004 says 13.7 million guns were purchased. So has the total number of guns gone up while the number of households has decreased?

I couldn't find where you get the figure of 13.7 million guns purchased?

No, if you look at the table, homicides with guns has sharply decreased since 1996.

That's true, my mistake. There's a sharp decrease from 1993 to 1999, and it's been stable after that.

It would be interesting to try and correlate the rates of firearm vs other means of homocide and suicide with gunownership, but I don't have time to do that now.

I've attached a couple of charts which shows the trends in ownership of household firearm and firearm homicides. The data was from the General Social Survey and the US dept of justice respectively.

Data for some of the crucial years (ie, the odd years since 1994) on the ownership of guns are missing.

Actually, it's hard to draw a definite conclusion from this
For reference, here's the data

Year    Homicides caused          Percentage of households with guns
          by guns
1976	11979				46.7
1977	11954				50.7
1978	12448				  -
1979	13590				  -
1980	14386				47.7
1981	14064				  -
1982	12638				43.8
1983	11266				  -
1984	11018				45.2
1985	11138				44.3
1986	12180				  -
1987	11875				42.5
1988	12537				40.1
1989	13422				46.1
1990	15072				42.7
1991	16378				39.9
1992	16201				  -
1993	17075				42.1
1994	16336				40.7
1995	14729				  -
1996	13264				40.2
1997	12336				  -
1998	11012				34.9
1999	10117				  - 
2000	10203				32.5
2001	10139				  -
2002	10824				33.5

 

[turbo]

The graphs don't tell the whole story. Looking at the percentage of households with firearms, you should expect to see a decline over the past couple of decades. First of all, some states and municipalities have enacted anti-gun legislation aimed mostly at handguns, so households in those areas will have either 1) fewer guns or 2) fewer people that will admit to having guns. In Maine you can own and carry a handgun openly, but you need a permit if you want to carry it concealed. In Massachusetts, you have to have a permit to even own a handgun and there are strict laws about how they can be transported through the state. NYC is very restrictive about the possession of handguns and transportation of same. IIR, they require you to be a member of a shooting club and you have to follow strict rules about transportation and are limited in the frequency of such transportation. There is also a permitting fee that you have to pay every two years. Legally owning a handgun in NYC can be expensive. Again, it is likely that very few people in NYC actually gave up their handguns when the restrictions started to hit - they just kept them hidden and refused to acknowledge that they owned any.

 

[enricfemi]

it seems more people dislike guns,and the shooter in this case maybe is common in daily life .i think such things hardly happen in China.

 

[Averagesupernova]

e2aow does a "wide open space" necessitate the use of a gun?

Actually I would prefer to hear your opinion on this. Necessitate is not the word I would choose. I think you mean "permit" correct?

Sure, there would be many places a ban would not be enforced -- like there are many places were people do illegal things on a regular basis -- however, this doesn't mean that a ban should not be put in place. Which amongst other things would cut down on the availability of a deadly weapon from the highstreet.

Things are illegal because someone decided that they should be. If it harms no one in a particular locality to be doing something illegal then it is likely that it will be permitted. If it harmed no one in EVERY locality the law would not have been passed to make it illegal in the first place. Sorry, I'm not willing to accept the idea that I shouldn't own a gun since it could be stolen from me by some bad people and used to do some bad things. It's one of the things that make me who I am and most other people in the USA who they are.

 

[Averagesupernova]

it seems more people dislike guns,and the shooter in this case maybe is common in daily life .i think such things hardly happen in China.

How do you figure more people dislike guns? Are you reading the poll correctly?

 

[Anttech]

Things are illegal because someone decided that they should be. If it harms no one in a particular locality to be doing something illegal then it is likely that it will be permitted. If it harmed no one in EVERY locality the law would not have been passed to make it illegal in the first place.

Well if that was true, drugs would be legal everywhere, but they are not. Laws arent passed for these reasons, they are passed to protect society...

 

[enricfemi]

How do you figure more people dislike guns? Are you reading the poll correctly?

the poll shows more people think the ownership of guns should be prohibited.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Well if that was true, drugs would be legal everywhere, but they are not. Laws arent passed for these reasons, they are passed to protect society...

That is not even close to a fair comparison. The use of guns is not addictive. The use of a gun does not alter your decision making capability. Sure laws are passed in order to protect society but if the people don't believe society needs protecting against something specific then that specific law will not be passed. The bill won't even be introduced.

 

[Averagesupernova]

the poll shows more people think the ownership of guns should be prohibited.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, check it again.

 

[Art]

the poll shows more people think the ownership of guns should be prohibited.

Look again - it doesn't.

 

[Art]

The use of a gun does not alter your decision making capability..

It certainly affects your decision making. If some 6' 6" thug thumped you and you had no gun you'd be inclined to let it go whereas if you were carrying a gun your preferred option might be different.

As someone once said 'God didn't make all men equal the Colt 45 did that.'

 

[Cyrus]

Guys, this isn't the thread for history lessons.

 

[Cyrus]

Of course it should be prohibited.

I'd point to the "Interesting Gun Safety Lesson" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131578

and the "Man tries to rob woman in wheel chair!" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131334

and the "Canadian College Shootings" thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=132146

and the locked thread on the recent tragedy: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=165992

for my opinions.

Ok, so you have one example from Canada, not the US. Another example you have is of where an old lady used a gun to protect herself (and goes agasint your logic). And you have two more sensational special cases. So, what does that have to do with regular responsible ownership by the average everyday citizen who isint running around shooting everybody?