Is Love Truly Real? Perspectives from Science and Society

[Carly]

.

Stress is stress, love is nothing special.

Love is special though. At least, it was special to me when I was experiancing it, and I'm sure to everyone else who's ever been in love and been loved in return.

 

[loseyourname]

There certainly is a distinction. Love and lust feel qualitatively different to the experiencer, and they typically are associated with drastically different behaviors. I haven't seen any evidence for this, but they very likely show up as distinct blobs of color in an fMRI scan of the brain as well.

I don't know about scans (or even if there is electrical activity associated with differential emotions in general) but there are definitely different neuropeptides associated with each feeling, as well as different hormonal responses in other parts of the body.

Edit: I should mention that there are also different chemicals associated with the feeling of "being in love" and with lasting monogamous committment. So if we're going to categorize emotions based on chemical associations, we should really distinguish between three categories, not two.

 

[franznietzsche]

Love is special though. At least, it was special to me when I was experiancing it, and I'm sure to everyone else who's ever been in love and been loved in return.

Except those who have been loved too many times.

That which is common, is also cheap.

 

[Integral]

My point is that there really is no distinction.

There is your problem.

Re read Astronuc's post. He is talking about love, Not lust. There is a huge difference. Relationships which mistake lust for love cannot last, because lust does not last.

Astronuc has given a pretty good definition of love, perhaps you need to study it. You may well realize that what you have experienced so far is lust and not love.

 

[franznietzsche]

You may well realize that what you have experienced so far is lust and not love.

Its not a question of what i experience. Using anecdotal evidence is horribly unscientific, i would think by now i should have established that that is the sort of thing i would not do, use my own anecdotal experience as evidence.

Its about what i can objectively observe around me.

 

[franznietzsche]

Perhaps I was reading too much into what you were saying, but your insistence that love is an illusion seems to indicate that you think it's not worth experiencing.

Close enough. More like it doesn't matter if you experience it, but whatever.

There certainly is a distinction. Love and lust feel qualitatively different to the experiencer, and they typically are associated with drastically different behaviors. I haven't seen any evidence for this, but they very likely show up as distinct blobs of color in an fMRI scan of the brain as well. There is overlap in some cases, certainly, but that doesn't disqualify any distinctions whatsoever. I don't mean to be obnoxious or pejorative in any way when I say this, but perhaps you can't find any relevant distinction between the two because you haven't personally experienced both emotions fully.

Oh there is a perceived difference sure. I'm speaking in terms of value. I'm not being very clear in what I'm saying, but my brain is rather frtizing out on me lately.

Sure they are experienced differently. By way of analogy, death by drowning feels different from death by suffocation, but either way its still death. Love and lust have a similar relationship--percieved differently, but ultimately still the same. One is no better than the other, one is not superior, or more divine or preferable, or whatever. In terms of value, there is no difference.

 

[loseyourname]

Love and lust have a similar relationship--percieved differently, but ultimately still the same. One is no better than the other, one is not superior, or more divine or preferable, or whatever. In terms of value, there is no difference.

That really depends on the species you are talking about. In k-selected species, particularly highly social species that spend a good deal of time learning from their parents, monogamy is of more value. In r-selected species, it is of virtually no value and lust is far preferable. Humans are a k-selected species and so monogamy (at least as long as your child is growing up) is advantageous.

 

[franznietzsche]

That really depends on the species you are talking about. In k-selected species, particularly highly social species that spend a good deal of time learning from their parents, monogamy is of more value. In r-selected species, it is of virtually no value and lust is far preferable. Humans are a k-selected species and so monogamy (at least as long as your child is growing up) is advantageous.

I'm done dealing with mixing definitions. Pick one and stick with it already.

For the last bloody time: Love in the "romantic" sense, big pink hearts, valentine's day, blah, blah, blah, is BS.

Pragmatic breeding strategies are a different context from the one under consideration. If you can't stick to a single definition in a discussion, I'm not going to waste my time trying to respond to you.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm done dealing with mixing definitions. Pick one and stick with it already.

For the last bloody time: Love in the "romantic" sense, big pink hearts, valentine's day, blah, blah, blah, is BS.

Everyone else seems pretty consistent in definitions. You're the only one who seems to be equating love with pink hearts and Valentine's day. Those have nothing to do with love. You don't have to be in love to give someone a pink heart or box of chocolate. Theoretically, you don't even need to like them.

Pragmatic breeding strategies are a different context from the one under consideration. If you can't stick to a single definition in a discussion, I'm not going to waste my time trying to respond to you.

They aren't. The question is about whether love exists. Your own argument is that it's all a neurobiological process, which neither loseyourname nor I refutes (and I don't think hypnagogue is refuting it either). What loseyourname and I are trying to convey, however, is that love and lust are not synonymous or different degrees of the same thing. They are two different emotions, most likely produced by neurobiological/neuroendocrine processes, which serve different functions for species survival. In the one case, you have lust, which can also be more dryly called motivation for sexual reproduction. This addresses the attraction between two people (or two of any species) that involves courtship and breeding. The only function to lust, or motivation for sexual reproduction, is for mating to occur. Once sexual satiety has been reached, it ends.

On the other hand, love is more of the process associated with long-term pair bonding. This is where loseyourname's example of K- vs R- strategy breeding comes into play. For species in which there is a long-term parental investment in raising offspring to maturity, such as humans, pair-bonding becomes important because having paternal assistance in raising off-spring increases the chances those offspring will survive. In such a case, lust isn't enough. The paternal investment doesn't end with mating. However, both males and females need to experience the processes involved with pair-bonding, otherwise the females will chase off the males, so it's not just a matter of the males needing to stick around but the willingness of the females to keep them around.

Now, in both situations, there is a selfish component. In the first case (lust), it's just to breed as quickly as possible to pass on genetic material to the next generation. In the second case (love), it's also advantageous to oneself to keep their mate around to help with the offspring, but this can be better accomplished by mutual affection.

There are different hormones involved in the two processes. In species in which there is little to no paternal investment in rearing of offspring, and pair-bonding does not occur, pretty much your basic sex steroids (estrogen, progesterone, testosterone) are all that's required to drive mating behavior (and a complex neurological system as well). In species that have a long-term paternal investement and pair bonding, oxytocin influences this affiliative behavior. Oxytocin during parturition is also important for females to form maternal bonds with their offspring, which is another affiliative behavior that humans describe as love.

Anyway, the original question is whether love is real, not whether love is special. You can observe behavior between two people who are in love that distinguishes them from those who are only in lust (this is not to say that two people who love each other can't also experience lust for each other, but the behaviors associated with each are different). For example, we can easily observe flirtation and sexual advances that are part of lust. When you witness two people who are also in love, you can observe things such as cohabitation when there is no sex happening, or "grooming" of one another. If you attempt to watch humans objectively, which is difficult being human, you will start to see differences between lustful and loving relationships. It has nothing to do with pink hearts. Actually, one of the signs I've noticed of loving relationships is that they stop worrying about things like pink hearts and Valentine's day. Those are displays of courtship for those who are in lust, and are no longer important for those secure in the bonds of love.

 

[Astronuc]

I had already seen that. The relevance?

Just testing your cerebral response.

For the last bloody time: Love in the "romantic" sense, big pink hearts, valentine's day, blah, blah, blah, is BS.

Totally wrong there.

Forget for a minute the tangible and materialistic expressions of love, e.g. stuff like pink hearts, cards, chocolate and more ostentious gifts like jewelry, expensive perfumes, etc.

Romantic love between a man and woman, especially when they are husband and wife, is absolutely not BS. It is absolutely wonderful.

The best part is having a soulmate and best friend with whom one can share one's thoughts and feelings, joys and concerns, and even the saddness and sorrows that are inevitable in life. The latter part is really important. The romance can be expressed in many ways - such as warm and tender embraces, tender kissing and so on. Then there is sharing music, poetry, ideas. There are shared activities, walks, watching a sunset, reading the paper, watching TV, cooking, gardening, yard work, house work, dinner out, movies, theatre, plays, musicals, concerts, parties, etc.

For a husband and wife, there is the most profound experience of childbirth. I was with my wife both times when my daughter and son were born, and it's difficult to express the profound and immense emotions of watching one's wife give birth and watching a child emerge from the womb. It's something that one has to experience to understand. And the whole time, one experiences the most postive emotions (like how really beautiful one's wife without the makeup and prep, and lack of sleep) as well as apprehension. In many cases, the woman is literally putting her life at risk to do this. That is one of the most profound human experience.

And then there are the gut-wrenching experiences with illness and death. I spent almost a year watching my youngest brother lose a long drawn out battle with leukemia. He had just started a medical practice as an obstetrical surgeon, and he was losing everything, including a 3 year old son and a young wife. My brother fought as hard as he could to hold on as long as he could for his son. In the end, he died a very slow and painful death. I was with him just before he slipped into unconsciousness. He died 4 days later, 3 days after my birthday, and 4 days after my father's birthday. I loved my brother so much, I would have gladly given my life for him then (I was 8.5 years older).

My wife helped me through that. I and my siblings helped and supported my parents as they lost their youngest son. At the gravesight, just after the ashes were interred, I held my father (very much a stoic) in my arms as he cried - the first time I had seen him cry. Love is being there to support one another in times of tremendous grief.

With Love comes great Joy, and with that also comes great risk of immense pain when that Love is lost.

Franz - Love is real, and Romantic Love is not BS.

It would appear that you have not personally experienced the Love yet. Hopefully you will someday.

 

[The_Professional]

Love is blind. What did Prince Charles saw in his new bride? she looks like a man

 

[Astronuc]

From Wikipedia

Camilla Parker Bowles (born July 17, 1947) was girlfriend, then mistress, and is now the fiancée of Charles, Prince of Wales. She and the Prince of Wales have announced that they will wed on April 8, 2005.

Being 58 she is either approaching or has experienced menopause. Certainly, they are not looking at having children.

He is marrying his sweetheart. I hope it works out for them.

Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, does it?

It's between Charles and Camilla - and that's all that matters.

May they have a peaceful and happy winter together.

 

[franznietzsche]

Romantic love between a man and woman, especially when they are husband and wife, is absolutely not BS. It is absolutely wonderful.

My entire contention has been the opposite, and still is.

Franz - Love is real, and Romantic Love is not BS.

It would appear that you have not personally experienced the Love yet. Hopefully you will someday.

Perhaps you're right. I won't argue against my own inexperience. But hear this:

I've had three girlfriends that were at one point all ready to start planning a wedding date, one right after the other.

What did it take to get there? Nothing at all really. Let's face the facts: I'm abrasive, egotistical. I have a superiority complex that makes john nash appear humble. Quite simply I'm an arsehole. and yet, all of them "loved" me. Simply because i knew the right things to say at the right time. Because i knew what was attractive and what wasn't. All of them made a big deal about the distinction between "lust" and "love", but all of them "loved" me. Not because love was anything magical, just because i knew what to say when.

My conclusion? "Love" is cheap, and nothing special. It is as easily gotten as it is lost.

Could i be wrong? Sure. But from watching people around me, i know what i see.

 

[the number 42]

I'm not being very clear in what I'm saying, but my brain is rather frtizing out on me lately.

Oh I see. They say that's the first sign of falling in love

Again, apologies if someone mentioned this previous to page 3 of this thread, but Sternberg (1986) suggested that the various forms of love consist of combinations of 3 elements:
Passion: "the drives that lead to romance, physical attraction, sexual consummation, and related phenomena"
Intimacy: "feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness"
Committment: "the decision that one loves someone else and ... the commitment to maintain that love"
http://psyche.tvu.ac.uk/phdrg/atkins/atws/document/280.html

Thus romantic love (flowers & chocolates) is the combination of passion & intimacy, but without any real committment. Passion doesn't get a category to itself, which I guess reflects Sternberg's view that this, by itself, isn't a form of love. However, the kind of love that involves real committment (as shown in marriages that survive life's problems) is called consumate love, and is the kind of love that people often think they are experiencing when they are really only experiencing romantic love. Franznietzsche, lust is a quickie without any illusions about how wonderful the other person is. Romantic love is a quickie with the person who is most perfect for you in the world. Consumate love is hoping the missus doesn't have another one of her headaches.

 

[Evo]

I've had three girlfriends that were at one point all ready to start planning a wedding date, one right after the other.

What did it take to get there? Nothing at all really. Let's face the facts: I'm abrasive, egotistical. I have a superiority complex that makes john nash appear humble. Quite simply I'm an arsehole. and yet, all of them "loved" me. Simply because i knew the right things to say at the right time. Because i knew what was attractive and what wasn't. All of them made a big deal about the distinction between "lust" and "love", but all of them "loved" me. Not because love was anything magical, just because i knew what to say when.

My conclusion? "Love" is cheap, and nothing special. It is as easily gotten as it is lost.

Could i be wrong? Sure. But from watching people around me, i know what i see.

I can see why you are skeptical. Just because you feel you were false with them doesn't mean that what they felt wasn't real, it just means that they fell in love with something that wasn't real.

You won't find real love until you find a girl that you can be yourself with. Don't be afraid to be yourself. What do you want? Do you want girls attracted to something you're not or do you want someone that loves "you"? Being accepted with all of your flaws and quirks is what real love is about.

 

[The_Professional]

I've had three girlfriends that were at one point all ready to start planning a wedding date, one right after the other.

What did it take to get there? Nothing at all really. Let's face the facts: I'm abrasive, egotistical. I have a superiority complex that makes john nash appear humble. Quite simply I'm an arsehole. and yet, all of them "loved" me. Simply because i knew the right things to say at the right time. Because i knew what was attractive and what wasn't. All of them made a big deal about the distinction between "lust" and "love", but all of them "loved" me. Not because love was anything magical, just because i knew what to say when.

My conclusion? "Love" is cheap, and nothing special. It is as easily gotten as it is lost.

Could i be wrong? Sure. But from watching people around me, i know what i see.

Sounds like they broke up with you. Perhaps you're bitter due to past experiences..

Romantic love doesn't really last very long it eventually turns into companionate love. Less of lust and more of wanting and being attached in a long term with a partner.

I've read an article stating that there's also a decrease in dopamine and norepinephrine as it turns into companionate love. The two chemicals are usually high during the beginning stages of lust.

However, an increase in oxytocin was also observed in the stage of companionate love.

 

[the number 42]

I've read an article that there's also a decrease in dopamine and norepinephrine as it turns into companionate love. The two chemicals are usually high during the beginning stages of lust.

However, an increase in oxytocin was also observed in the stage of companionate love.

Not to mention the strong correlation between romantic love and levels of chocolates

 

[The_Professional]

Not to mention the strong correlation between romantic love and levels of chocolates

The chemical Phenylethylamine can be found in chocolate which is also secreted(?) in the brain when a person is in love. Which is most likely what gives that "great, loving feeling high".

 

[Ivan Seeking]

franznietzsche
Confidence is often found to be appealing. They were probably attracted for reasons that they don't understand. This happens to all of us esp when we're young.

This is exactly why it is so important to realize what is nature calling - lust, blind attraction, love at first sight [usually, IMO], dirty magazines and Hooters - and what is love - a heartfelt connection, a soulmate, a companion, as person who shares common desires and beliefs, a person that you love to spend time with, a person who becomes an integral part of your life that you don't want to live without, and so much more. These are the things that come from or define real love. If this hasn't happened for you then you haven't fallen in love yet; and that's okay. It doesn't happen very often. But I also agree with you in that many people marry for lust. I think its an easy trap for most of us to fall into when driven by hormones. this is why parents usually want their kids to grow up a little before they marry. They realize how much growing up we do in our late teens and early twenties. There are no guarantees but maturity helps. I nearly married the wrong girl when I was twenty. Some years later Tsu and I met and I was ready for a serious relationship, and not just playing house.

Of course, as soon as Tsu saw me she was a helpless, but I was a complete gentleman.

 

[franznietzsche]

I can see why you are skeptical. Just because you feel you were false with them doesn't mean that what they felt wasn't real, it just means that they fell in love with something that wasn't real.

That wasn't quite what i meant. I never lied to anyone of them. I never acted as anything other than myself. That was the problem. I tend to be very machiavellian when I'm dealing with people in general, its almost instinctive, and not something I'm particularly proud of. Its never something i tried to do--i just did it. If something would go wrong, i would just start talking, and everything just comes out right, without even really trying to fast talk my way out of--or into anything.

I wasn't saying what they felt wasn't real, I'm saying that it was nothing special. When they were saying these things after as little as 3 weeks(well, one of them anyway), that would be a logical conlcusion.

As a side note, after those experiences, i tend to disclaim myself whenever i hear those words coming from women's mouths--i don't want them to feel that way about me when i don't feel that way about them, i don't want to hurt them--with those three i was very inexperienced, and still believed in romantic notions of love. I even thought i loved them.

You won't find real love until you find a girl that you can be yourself with. Don't be afraid to be yourself. What do you want? Do you want girls attracted to something you're not or do you want someone that loves "you"? Being accepted with all of your flaws and quirks is what real love is about.

I want an equal and a challenge.

What i want is a person who is fully my equal. A person who when my mind kicks into its machiavellian mode isn't even fazed, and walks right through every hoop with ease--a worthy opponent in the art of verbal fencing so to speak.

And I've never met one.

 

[franznietzsche]

Sounds like they broke up with you. Perhaps you're bitter due to past experiences..

That might make sense...if it was true. Well, actually one of them did. The other two didn't. Either way, don't see how that's applicable. Two of them i broke up with because i got bored being with them--i'm sorry to say, it sounds callous, but that is what it came down to.

 

[franznietzsche]

Of course, as soon as Tsu saw me she was a helpless, but I was a complete gentleman.

Yeah, sure

 

[Moonbear]

I wasn't saying what they felt wasn't real, I'm saying that it was nothing special. When they were saying these things after as little as 3 weeks(well, one of them anyway), that would be a logical conlcusion.

After only 3 weeks, they were probably confusing lust with love. It happens often among the young, as Ivan has already noted. I don't believe in love at first sight, I do believe in lust at first sight. Love takes a little more time to develop. You're still young, so it's not at all surprising that you haven't found real love yet.

I want an equal and a challenge.

What i want is a person who is fully my equal. A person who when my mind kicks into its machiavellian mode isn't even fazed, and walks right through every hoop with ease--a worthy opponent in the art of verbal fencing so to speak.

I'm not so sure about the "challenge" part, but looking for someone you consider your equal is important. However, keep in mind that finding your equal may not mean finding someone exactly like yourself, but instead, someone who complements you. She may have strengths you lack and weaknesses which are your strengths. Try to keep your mind open to that possibility. That's all part of what dating is about, finding out about a person enough to decide if they are someone you are compatible with or not. There's nothing wrong with taking your time to find the right person. True love doesn't happen all that often. You'll know it's real when it's like nothing else you've ever felt before, and only gets better every day you're with the person who stirs that feeling in you.

 

[Chronos]

Complicated explanations. Why not just let it happen? If it does, that's wonderful. If it doesn't, move on. I'd rather be alone than apologize for why I'm not.

 

[the number 42]

I want an equal and a challenge.

What i want is a person who is fully my equal. A person who when my mind kicks into its machiavellian mode isn't even fazed, and walks right through every hoop with ease--a worthy opponent in the art of verbal fencing so to speak.

And I've never met one.

You don't need a girlfriend, you need a debating society.

 

[cragwolf]

"Do you feel love is real?"

No, I feel love is a mixture of real and imaginary. Love is complex!

 

[franznietzsche]

You don't need a girlfriend, you need a debating society.

Yeah, i get bored at those too.

 

[The_Professional]

I don't think a girl who'll constantly argue, nag and debate is good long term relationship material. After a while of incessant debating, arguing, nagging you'll get sick of her too

 

[Moonbear]

You don't need a girlfriend, you need a debating society.

That's only what he thinks he needs. What he really needs is one who will put up with him and when he gets too full of himself can just tell him, "Shut up and kiss me."

franz, there's more to life than academics and debating. I hope you'll find a woman who can show you how to not take everything in life quite so seriously.

 

[Astronuc]

You don't need a girlfriend, you need a debating society.

I was thinking along the lines of a sparring partner.

But that would seem to be a mutually destructive relationship.

 

[the number 42]

"Shut up and kiss me."

Mooners, I remember a time when you could barely bring yourself to whisper the word 'reproduction'. Now its all "lets all have a massage" and "kiss me kiss me". I was a bit wary of you during your nun phase, but there seems to be some sort of rebound effect kicking in. That or you are running trials on Prozac at your lab?

 

[the number 42]

Yeah, i get bored at those too.

What about a debating society in a skirt?

 

[the number 42]

I was thinking along the lines of a sparring partner.

But that would seem to be a mutually destructive relationship.

Hmmm. I can't see how a girl punching the living solids out of me could be much of a turn on. It would only be mutually destructive if I could get a couple of low blows and rabbit punches in. (Did I just say "low blows"?).

 

[hypnagogue]

Its not a question of what i experience. Using anecdotal evidence is horribly unscientific, i would think by now i should have established that that is the sort of thing i would not do, use my own anecdotal experience as evidence.

Its about what i can objectively observe around me.

It completely is a question of what you experience! Unless you think you have solved the problem of other minds, that is. One cannot fully understand what it feels like to be in love, or to feel any other kind of subjective experience for that matter, unless one has experienced the relevant quality for one's self. (Some might argue that a complete, objective neuroscientific description of the brain would give us a complete understanding of subjective experience, but as we do not have such a complete neuroscientific description, this contention is irrelevant to the immediate conversation here.)

I've had three girlfriends that were at one point all ready to start planning a wedding date, one right after the other.

What did it take to get there? Nothing at all really. Let's face the facts: I'm abrasive, egotistical. I have a superiority complex that makes john nash appear humble. Quite simply I'm an arsehole. and yet, all of them "loved" me. Simply because i knew the right things to say at the right time. Because i knew what was attractive and what wasn't. All of them made a big deal about the distinction between "lust" and "love", but all of them "loved" me. Not because love was anything magical, just because i knew what to say when.

My conclusion? "Love" is cheap, and nothing special. It is as easily gotten as it is lost.

Is that anything more than anecdotal evidence?

In any case, since you cannot have leapt into your former girlfriends' minds, you cannot know what it was that they were emotionally experiencing. Very likely, at least one of them did feel genuine emotions for you, and not just in a lusty way. The relatively short lasting, brightly burning feeling of "being in love" can be ignited in short term circumstances. The question of under what conditions this emotion can be 'turned on' for certain people does not address the experiential quality of the feeling itself. The feeling of "being in love" or "romantic love" itself, as other people have described, is probably one of the most wonderful and intoxicating emotions a human can experience; it is really quite different from feeling lust. One who has experienced both emotions will be quick to tell you as much.

 

[Astronuc]

hypnagogue, I just noticed your location. While your in there, please find out what's going on. I'd like to know - sought of a sanity check, if you will.

 

[loseyourname]

I want an equal and a challenge.

What i want is a person who is fully my equal. A person who when my mind kicks into its machiavellian mode isn't even fazed, and walks right through every hoop with ease--a worthy opponent in the art of verbal fencing so to speak.

And I've never met one.

Dude, you're 17, aren't you? How many girls have you been even peripherally involved with that weren't teenagers? Plenty of women of the type you describe are out there (though admittedly, I generally found them outside of southern California). You have to consider that men who are arseholes like yourself tend to attract weak-minded women that crave abuse. I'd be wary of anyone that was attracted to me if I were you. It would be better if you found someone that you were actually attracted to (and not just physically, as there is an obvious mental component that sounds important to you). It's easy to be confident when confronted with a woman who will fall for you no matter what. If you really want to call yourself confident, find someone who is a challenge. Don't just wait for her to come along; challenge yourself, and don't try to tell me that you can't find a single person that fits your criteria. I know they're out there.

 

[hypnagogue]

hypnagogue, I just noticed your location. While your in there, please find out what's going on. I'd like to know - sought of a sanity check, if you will.

That's meant more as a tongue in cheek way of saying that your acquaintance with me is nothing more than your internal mental construct of who I am. So technically, I suppose you could imagine how I might assess what's going on in your head given what you think you know about who I am and how I think, but for this delicate matter I advise sticking with your own self-construct of Astronuc as opposed to using Astronuc-simulating-hypnagogue.

 

[Moonbear]

Mooners, I remember a time when you could barely bring yourself to whisper the word 'reproduction'. Now its all "lets all have a massage" and "kiss me kiss me". I was a bit wary of you during your nun phase, but there seems to be some sort of rebound effect kicking in. That or you are running trials on Prozac at your lab?

I think all those little candy hearts in my avatar are having some weird effect on how my words are taken. Hmm...trying to decide if that means I should keep the avatar or ditch it.

I think I get all my Prozac from the water supply.

 

[franznietzsche]

Dude, you're 17, aren't you? How many girls have you been even peripherally involved with that weren't teenagers?

Only one of those three was actually. I've never dated a women my age or younger actually.

Plenty of women of the type you describe are out there (though admittedly, I generally found them outside of southern California). You have to consider that men who are arseholes like yourself tend to attract weak-minded women that crave abuse. I'd be wary of anyone that was attracted to me if I were you.

So I've learned.

It would be better if you found someone that you were actually attracted to (and not just physically, as there is an obvious mental component that sounds important to you). It's easy to be confident when confronted with a woman who will fall for you no matter what. If you really want to call yourself confident, find someone who is a challenge.

I never said i was confident, Ivan was the one who used that word. I just said that somehow i managed to always say the right thing, at the right time, without ever losing control of a situation (or it seems like that sometimes, i don't know how true that really is)

 

[Astronuc]

That's meant more as a tongue in cheek way of saying that your acquaintance with me is nothing more than your internal mental construct of who I am.

I have to remember not to take what I read so literally.

. . . your own self-construct of Astronuc

Hmmm, I don't have one of those. Got any idea where to get one?

 

[Smurf]

Of course love is real, love is a chemical reaction to hormones in the brain, how is it not real? What nonsense is this.

 

[the number 42]

...arseholes like yourself tend to attract weak-minded women that crave abuse. I'd be wary of anyone that was attracted to me if I were you. It would be better if you found someone that you were actually attracted to (and not just physically, as there is an obvious mental component that sounds important to you).

Insightful stuff (the whole post), and suggests a knotty pattern:

Pattern 1:
A/ Weak-minded masochistic women are attracted to Arseholes.
B/ Arseholes are not attracted to weak-minded masochistic women.
C/ They start dating and it ends in tears.

Pattern 2:
A/ Arseholes are attracted to women who are: an equal, a challenge, very patient, excellent debating skills, attractive. These women are very scarce if they exist as a species at all. Let's call them Penthouse Amazons.
B/ Missing data: Are these women attracted to Arseholes? If we can generalise from Pattern 1 to Pattern 2, then we would predict that Penthouse Amazons are not attracted to Arseholes. (It could be that they are attracted to some other species that exists only in their superb imaginations).
C/ Missing data: If Arseholes and Penthouse Amazons start dating, does it work out well? Again, extrapolating from Pattern 1, they soon realize that they are not getting what they need from each other, and it ends in tears.

I'd like to end this post with some words of wisdom, but... uh... I can't think of anything. How about a few words of wizdumb instead? This is from William James (on drugs):
"Women are monogamous
Men are polygamous.
Higgamous Hoggamous
Hoggamous Higgamous".

 

[Astronuc]

I have some answers to 2B and C, but it'll have to wait.

Along the lines of the Golden Rule - Do unto others as one would have done unto onself. (This does not apply to masochists).

Back later.

 

[the number 42]

I have some answers to 2B and C, but it'll have to wait.

Along the lines of the Golden Rule - Do unto others as one would have done unto onself. (This does not apply to masochists).

Back later.

Back later? What are you doing, cruising the bars for Penthouse Amazons? I hope you don't expect a grant for this 'field research'.

 

[franznietzsche]

Back later? What are you doing, cruising the bars for Penthouse Amazons? I hope you don't expect a grant for this 'field research'.

Its a special kind of "grant" he's looking for. Besides its friday, that's what friday's are for.

 

[loseyourname]

I have some answers to 2B and C, but it'll have to wait.

Along the lines of the Golden Rule - Do unto others as one would have done unto onself. (This does not apply to masochists).

Back later.

I've always lived by the rule "Do unto oneself as you would have others do unto you." I've never thought it a good idea to rely on other people to treat you well. Treat yourself well and be happy with that.

 

[Moonbear]

Its a special kind of "grant" he's looking for. Besides its friday, that's what friday's are for.

franz...I think you missed a day somewhere! It's Saturday!

 

[franznietzsche]

franz...I think you missed a day somewhere! It's Saturday!

Hmmm...well i thought it was odd that a party that wild happened on a thursday. THis explains so much.

 

[Astronuc]

Back later? What are you doing, cruising the bars for Penthouse Amazons? I hope you don't expect a grant for this 'field research'.

No, I spent time with my son today - kind of a father-son day. He had to get a hair cut, and I took him to a local festival. Then to a music store. Came home.

I don't cruise bars. I never have, and I never will.

As for Penthouse Amazons - interesting. But my response will have to wait.

 

[Astronuc]

Pattern 2:
A/ A******s are attracted to women who are: an equal, a challenge, very patient, excellent debating skills, attractive. These women are very scarce if they exist as a species at all. Let's call them Penthouse Amazons.
B/ Missing data: Are these women attracted to A******s? If we can generalise from Pattern 1 to Pattern 2, then we would predict that Penthouse Amazons are not attracted to A******s. (It could be that they are attracted to some other species that exists only in their superb imaginations).
C/ Missing data: If A******s and Penthouse Amazons start dating, does it work out well? Again, extrapolating from Pattern 1, they soon realize that they are not getting what they need from each other, and it ends in tears.

I have known quite several attractive women who would qualify as Penthouse Amazons, and all of them seem to have attracted the 'wrong' kind of men. Most have married and divorced at least once. Several now live alone.

One of the women I dated during my early years in university went on to pose for Playboy, after she and I had gone separate ways. She was feeling 'rebellious' and just did it. She then married one of the 'popular' guys from the university. I and others thought it was a big mistake.

Down the road, I ran into her at a university function after both of us had been married about one year. She was carrying her months old son with her, while her husband was off somewhere with his buddies. When I mentioned how great it was to be married, she responded "well for some people". After further brief disucssion, it was clear she was miserable. When I had dated her, she was studying Italian (already fluent in English and German), economics and international relations. She had planned a career in international business and finance. When I saw her years later, she had sacrificed all of her dreams for a man who didn't care or had no clue.

I have known several women with similar experiences. So the answer to Pattern 2 B and C, is quite often yes -

2B - Attractive woman falls for the 'wrong' man.
2C - More often however, it is the woman who does not get what she really wants, and the man is clueless (IMO).

I didn't realize that 'franznietzsche' is not quite 18 years of age, until loseyourname pointed it out.

FN, IMO, you're still too young to know whether Love is real or not. Young people think infatuation (desire or lust) is Love. It isn't.

Love is based on mutual respect, honesty/truthfulness, loyalty. Without those attributes, Love does not exist. Also, mutual respect is only possible when a person has self-respect. From self-respect arises "do unto others, as you would others do unto you."

BTW - lose the egotism.

=============================
And the rest of the gentlemen, consider:

Do right by your woman, she'll do right by you. (Bad Company)