Is mathematics a young man's game?

[Mathguy15]

No! Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try.

Ok I do. Happy?

 

[Dembadon]

Ok I do. Happy?

I just realized that you might've never seen the movie I'm referring to. So here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3hn6fFTxeo

 

[Mathguy15]

I just realized that you might've never seen the movie I'm referring to. So here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3hn6fFTxeo

Star Wars! Nice!

 

[Mathguy15]

Oh, and there is a really good article on math competitions and genius. While its not very directly related to you, I think you will find it helpful functor97. The article has many quotes from fields medallists and wolf prize winners, including some who doubted there own abilities. Enjoy!



http://lesswrong.com/lw/2v1/great_mathematicians_on_math_competitions_and/

 

[Functor97]

Let me share a story about myself that may be relevant. I was a star in math in high school and was told I was great but had the same fears you express as to whether I could ever do anything really outstanding. I went to a good college as a merit scholar, was actually admitted over the phone and still thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. In college I did poorly but had all manner of excuses for myself. I bounced through more years without distinction, and kept getting free rides to grad school, and was told I was promising but never performed. Eventually they gave up on me and I had to leave school.

I spent years trying to recover some status, working hard, trying to learn some discipline and some hard math skills. Finally, maybe with the motivation of needing to feed my family, I made a discovery about myself. I had a fear of trying as hard as I could, in case I should find out I was not as great as pretended to be after all.

I realized I only had one last chance at becoming a mathematician. I had to take a chance, the chance that even if I gave it everything I had, I might still never be good. But that is the chance we all have to take in life. If we want to compete in the world, we have to give it our best shot, with no guarantee it will give us the results we hope for.

In my case, indeed I was nowhere near the great mathematician I had fantasized about. But I was miles better than I would have been without trying my best. If you want a guarantee you will succeed before you are wiling to try even the career you want most, you are handicapping yourself almost totally. One strategy is one I mentioned - give up credit for your successes and grant them all to those who helped and supported you, God, your parents, your teachers, your forebears, your students.

There must be other strategies as well. The point is to find a way to have the courage to give yourself a chance to succeed. Good luck. To quote the great Silvanus P. Thompson's "ancient simian proverb", "what one fool has done, another can". Just a joke, please take it as meant.

Thank you for posting that Mathwonk, it has helped a lot!

 

[Functor97]

Oh, and there is a really good article on math competitions and genius. While its not very directly related to you, I think you will find it helpful functor97. The article has many quotes from fields medallists and wolf prize winners, including some who doubted there own abilities. Enjoy!



http://lesswrong.com/lw/2v1/great_mathematicians_on_math_competitions_and/

Yeah i saw those yesterday, it is quite interesting.

 

[kings7]

So is pursuing a PhD in math to become a postdoc analogous to playing basketball 6 hours a day for ten years in hopes of going to the NBA? Or practicing guitar 6 hours a day from age 18-28 to become a musician?

You can spend 6 hours per day every day for ten years and become a postdoc in math, yes.

The amount of work is what matters. If you want to compare differing intelligences, I suggest you define intelligence first and then let the rest of the neuroscience community know.

I'm not sure if you meant it this way, but your post seems slightly ignorant. If you knew the actual amount of work and intelligence (rigorous intelligence, nonetheless) it takes to become an actual musician (read: not just a pop star), I posit that you would not have used this as an example.

 

[mathwonk]

Let me put it another way functor, with all the good feedback you have received, it is far more likely that you have more potential than you can easily believe, than that you do not have enough to succeed. Your talent is a gift from your ancestors, the development of it is your gift to them and to yourself.

40 years ago I was unloading meat from a truck at $4/hour. When I finally made the commitment to become as good a mathematician as I could, my intellectual journey began. Once you start on the path, many people will assist you, because they have all gone on the same search.

If you still lack confidence, let me assure you I believe you can succeed. Choose and pursue your goal. But be measured in all things. Math is not everything. Work hard when you are young, but as a parent, play with your kids when they want you to. There will be time for math when they are asleep. There are a lot of pins to keep in the air.

 

[mathsciguy]

I think everybody who's seriously trying to pursue a career in academia or even someone who just want to do good in science in math should read this thread.

I'm quite surprised that most people who posted their experiences and anecdotes parallels mine's. I'm also having a hard time on my science/math education. As I'm always haunted by the thoughts of my own flaws. I guess it's something that's usually experienced by anyone who's serious in math and science.

Looking back, the reason why I'm set to do science/math was because I just thought it's too damn cool, now I don't know why I'm stressing too much about it.

 

[PhDorBust]

Think about it this way. The really good people wouldn't be deemed really good if they didn't have people like you to say they're better than.

 

[jk]

...
40 years ago I was unloading meat from a truck at $4/hour. When I finally made the commitment to become as good a mathematician as I could, my intellectual journey began. Once you start on the path, many people will assist you, because they have all gone on the same search.
...
.

$4/hour was good pay 40 years ago...equivalent to 22/hr today. This roughly translates to $40,000 per year..better than a lot of postdoc salaries

 

[tclos]

People who are really talented at an early age are born with it. I'm not sure of your situation, but you would know by now. Even if you are not born with it, it takes years of patience and hard work (sometimes a decade or more) to achieve greatness (it also depends on what your definition of 'greatness' is). However, I would seriously consider counseling if your self worth is solely determined by your mathematical abilities.

 

[ivan77]

A couple of things come to mind:

“Genius is 1% talent and 99% percent hard work...”
― Albert Einstein

second, I've heard a thousand times before that you shouldn't choose a career path because of the money, do it because you love it.

Wanting to be a professional mathematician because you want to win awards is going for the money.

Also, I find it kind of strange that you suggest that the theoretical physics community admonishes those who break from the status quo when the most revered in that community are precisley those who introduce some kind of a disruptive concept.

 

[mheslep]

This sounds appropriate:

Feynman zinger for the NAS!

 

[nazarbaz]

Kant, one of the greatest philosophical minds ever, wrote his first interesting piece at the age of 57... The most precious thing you can reach in our professions is to develop a perspective of your own, a new way to look at things... It is very hard and, for most of us, dangerous, both on a personal and professional levels... I doubt you can reach it when you only want it... You must have to... It can't be an act of "free will" and it can't be a mere result of some "inner qualities"...
In humanities, the world must shake around you when you are thinking if you do not intend to mainstream and to reproduce the same intellectual clichés that you despise in the litterature... I can understand that ambition... Though, doing it for fame is just ridiculous... People who look for this kind of psychological and social rewards are the true failures... True genius does not need others recognition... It doesn't even depend on you to attribute yourself some merit in it...
Genius reveals what is bigger than us...

 

[mheslep]

A couple of things come to mind:

“Genius is 1% talent and 99% percent hard work...”
― Albert Einstein

...

And predating Einstein:

“Men give me credit for some genius. All the genius I have is this. When I have a subject in mind. I study it profoundly. Day and night it is before me. My mind becomes pervaded with it... the effort which I have made is what people are pleased to call the fruit of genius. It is the fruit of labor and thought.”

Alexander Hamilton

 

[mathwonk]

That's why I was doing it jk, I couldn't live on my postdoc salary. And every day I was expected to carry off 80,000 pounds of meat, each piece weighing from 150 to 300 pounds while sliding in slippery fat. I definitely earned it. And there was one homicide per year among my 15 or so peers.

You have pointed exactly the choice I faced: continue doing that until I was as old and bent down as the men around me, some still lugging at the same pay in their 50's, assuming I was one of the ones not murdered sooner or sent to prison,

or try another career. The postdoc pay was indeed less at first, but now I am retired on a pension not offered to former luggers. Obviously no one goes into research for the postdoc pay. You have to look past that. If you can't, then research is not for you. I'm not saying its an easy or lucrative life. I'm just observing it is not impossible for someone gifted who really knows he wants it.

In 1981 I was an NSF postdoc at Harvard working for $15,000/year, to support a family of 4 in Harvard square, and that's after getting a PhD and winning a prize offered only to 10 top young researchers per year. But it was worth it to me.

This thread has never been about the competitiveness of academic pay, only whether it is too late or too far out of reach for the OP. He didn't ask whether it was preferable to private industry. For many people that would be "no". But thanks for brining it up. I would not want to encourage him to pursue a career he would later regret.

 

[jk]

You are absolutely right