Is Memory the Key to Disproving the Existence of God?

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The discussion centers on the argument against the existence of God, emphasizing that if God possesses consciousness and omniscience, it must have memory, which implies a dependence on physical components. This leads to the conclusion that God is subject to the laws of nature and not all-powerful, contradicting traditional assumptions about divinity. Participants debate the nature of memory, with some arguing that memory is essential for consciousness, while others assert that God could exist outside of time, negating the need for memory. The conversation also touches on the implications of a temporal versus a timeless God, with the latter being preferred to avoid limitations imposed by time. Ultimately, the argument suggests that the concept of God is based on flawed assumptions rather than empirical evidence.
  • #51
I just woke up, so the majority of your post makes no sense...

If we weren't around to create an idea of God, would he still exist?

Depends on what you would call existence... Even if something is not thought of, thought up, or used in some way...it can still exist... Unless, you mean, is the only reason we have a God and religion is because of the human's imagination and need to have some "fool-proof" system in which nothing ever goes wrong and that when you die, to go to a magical place of happiness..
 
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  • #52
Yes and no. God is created by us but does not exist only in the imagination as a fool proof technique. The moment you are born you are adding to that energy complex we call God. So (again, it is only my opinion) You wouldn't think of God as an individual or something made up but something that will exist without you however, you add to it in a positive or negative way.

You know how a two dimensional person, if lifted into a three dimensional plane, would see different slices of the person as it's coming up? That person wouldn't see a being as a whole but as different slices which he envisions as individual entities. For example: by the feet he would see two slices. By the hip he would see a large slice. By the arms he would see three different slices, and so on. In our dimension, we would only see our individual selfs without assuming that all those individuals in another dimension might be part of a whole being. We I think in those lines, the idea of God is more meaninful than saying: We make it up
 
  • #53
You mean to say as.. The universe is God?
 
  • #54
Deca-of-CD said:
You mean to say as.. The universe is God?

yes but in a different plane. Or, the universe makes up God
 
  • #55
So.. you mean that God is not a single entity, but is everything that is... is 'God'... I think I just confused myself with my own words... :cry:
 
  • #56
God does not need a memory. becuase we are human matter, we need this. by saying god needs a memory, you are putting God in the same boat as us. However, God is different because God is NOT human. God is a spirit. He has no human atribute. Since He has no human atribute, how can you limit Him as we are limited? How can you limit a spirit at all? It is impossible because the Bible quotes Him as being..." separated from this world", therefore not limiting Himself to anything. God however, can be limited. He can limit himself only by himself. This is why he chooses not to sin. he could, but he does not want to. sorry, but if they could not have proven god wrong in the last two thousand years, i don't think you have much of a shot either... If you want to know more about my God feel free to e-mail me and I will tell you how you can come to know Him.
 
  • #57
Why the hell would I want to 'know' some fictitional character from -your- religion, which I am guessing is Christianity...

I'm going with Felipefas, in a way... Humans percieve the universe as God--or, they concieve the idea of God because they can not understand, or do not attempt to understand, anything of the universe...
 
  • #58
Deca-of-CD said:
Why the hell would I want to 'know' some fictitional character from -your- religion, which I am guessing is Christianity...

I'm going with Felipefas, in a way... Humans percieve the universe as God--or, they concieve the idea of God because they can not understand, or do not attempt to understand, anything of the universe...

Could it be the opposite?
 
  • #59
We all seem to think differently about God no matter what. Shadowman sees God as an individual somewhere out there all-knowing, all-seeing.

I can't understand what ten-years mean by the opposite. You mean to say that God perceive us?

"o.. you mean that God is not a single entity, but is everything that is... is 'God'... I think I just confused myself with my own words..."

I think that's closer to what I'm referring to. It shouldn't take away from the idea that God does exist. Just not as an individual but as a collection of the energy that exists in all the universe of which we form part. I guess whitout proof there is not much that can be said. However, the picture seems to fit better everyone beliefs on God. We posses control over our actions, however, they are regulated by this much bigger force. Every time we do something good for others it reflects back on us. Not only materially but energetically. Look at the Dalai Lama, a good person that inspires only happiness and goodness. And every time we do something bad to others, it haunts our consciousness (there is a thread going on conciousness and weather it exists in other planes we don't know about), and our health. We've got plenty of examples of those.
 
  • #60
No disrespect intended but people have been proving and disproving the existence of god since the time of Isaac Newton so what your doing is nothing new.
 
  • #61
Hagie190 said:
No disrespect intended but people have been proving and disproving the existence of god since the time of Isaac Newton so what your doing is nothing new.

Weren't they doing that before his time in the field of philosophy, like with Aquinas and St. Augustine?
 
  • #62
Hagie... Did we ****ing say (someone may have, but i didnt) that we are the first people to think "oh.. there is no god"...hbfs;lc e.. **** I hate idiots..
 
  • #63
why do people need to invent the idea of god to explain things such as the big bang?
The reason for this is because no one currently understands how the big bang happened. A simple

answer for this which is put forward; "God made the universe". Their argument for this statement is

to put forward questions such as "What was there before the big bang? there must have been

something. That something must be infinately powerfull, ergo it must be God".


This reasoning for me does not answer the question, it just creates more problems. New questions

arise; "what is god?", "How did God come into existence?"
The second question is usually answered "God is infinate, he has always existed". The problem i

have with these people is that they can believe this argument, but dismiss the argument that the

big bang just came into existence. Which is essentially the same sort of question. In effect they are explaining nothing. Why not just remove the whole idea of a God altogether and simplify the problem?

I hope that makes as much sense typed out as it did in my head.
 
  • #64
I agree, addman..

And the next time a religious person states something from the Bible quoted as a "miracle" is getting stabbed in the face with a 0.7 mm lead pencil...
 
  • #65
here you go

i have a few questions for you...

1. Do houses evolve into houses, or are they built?
2. Do chairs and tables and lamps and computers etc. evolve, or are they built?
3. What about all the other stuff that is man made?

It is a very simple fact that man is the most complex organism on the earth.

4. Who is to say that we are not God made?

Im sorry, but as soon as I see a piece of lumber evolve into a house, i will believe in God...
 
  • #66
addman said:
Why not just remove the whole idea of a God altogether and simplify the problem?


Why not just remove the whole idea of the big bang theory and simplify the problem a better way?
 
  • #67
Because there is EVIDENCE for the big bang.
 
  • #68
ah yes i believe that also everything is literaly made up of something bigger - always since i was small i thought that the eaerth was just a dirty drop of rainwater falling somewhere

always wondered what would happen when we hit the ground...
 
  • #69
shadowman said:
i have a few questions for you...

1. Do houses evolve into houses, or are they built?
2. Do chairs and tables and lamps and computers etc. evolve, or are they built?
3. What about all the other stuff that is man made?

It is a very simple fact that man is the most complex organism on the earth.

4. Who is to say that we are not God made?

Im sorry, but as soon as I see a piece of lumber evolve into a house, i will believe in God...


When you talk about evolution, you need to watch your timescales. Please don't compare events with comletely different timescales. Man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. How long do YOU plan to stare at the firewood ?
 
  • #70
shadowman said:
i have a few questions for you...

1. Do houses evolve into houses, or are they built?
2. Do chairs and tables and lamps and computers etc. evolve, or are they built?
3. What about all the other stuff that is man made?

It is a very simple fact that man is the most complex organism on the earth.

4. Who is to say that we are not God made?

Im sorry, but as soon as I see a piece of lumber evolve into a house, i will believe in God...

Your thinking about this too litterally, of course chairs and houses evolve. Its not as if someone woke up one day and built st. pauls cathedral. To get to that point took thousands of years of starting out with mud huts then moving on to thatched huts etc etc.. each generation learning something new about the process of building enabling complex structures to evolve over time.
This is part of the reason why i think evolution is such a sound theory, its not just life that evolves but concepts, ideas, and art.

Couldnt really tell if you were using your argument to prove or deny god btw so sorry if that didnt make any sense in relation to what you were saying
 
  • #71
Why do you all seek for hell?

God exists, believe it or not. It isn't the universe which is a God. But mind it that there is a supernatural being which controls the universe and the happenings in it. Ok, can you just tell who created the universe, obviously i'll have an answer that it was coincidently made. Scientist believe that the universe was created by some kind of big bang, if yes then how did the collision happen, and from where did the collided particles came from. All the strange questions lead everyone to reach to the answer that there is a supernatural being who did all this and made it happen. :mad:
 
  • #72
Oh my ****... Someone shoot Razi Abid...

All the strange questions lead everyone to reach to the answer that there is a supernatural being who did all this and made it happen.

...All of the questions do not lead to the answer of some supernatural being, ****tard..

If i felt like typing out that huge ass portion from Hyperspace, I would... But I don't feel like typing it all out, so buy the book and read pages 191 to 214...
 
  • #73
Oh.. and give me Logical proof OF God.. And I'll buy the religion ****...
 
  • #74
modmans2ndcoming said:
ahem...with all due respect, I can point you to something that holds information without needing memory...

the universe. it has no memory, but it holds lots and lots of structured meaningful information.

And god or no god, it went through a creation. Not helping your case.
 
  • #75
Razi Abid said:
Can you just tell who created the universe, obviously i'll have an answer that it was coincidently made. Scientist believe that the universe was created by some kind of big bang, if yes then how did the collision happen, and from where did the collided particles came from?
If anyone gives a logical answer to this question, then i will definately stop believing in GOD. This will be a hard task for me as I solely believe in ONE GOD.
______________________________________________________________
Make me stop believing in God, i bet no one can.
 
  • #76
The Big Bang could have come from branes colliding, or it could have come from a quantum fluctualtion - the "free lunch" proposal, or it could have come about in some other way.

But just because science doesn't have an explicit answer for this doesn't mean you are logically justified in concluding that a personal god made the universe. This is like asking what color is grandpa's house? And if you get the answer "I don't know", saying "Well then it must be pink with purple polka-dots."
 
  • #77
Razi Abid said:
If anyone gives a logical answer to this question, then i will definately stop believing in GOD. This will be a hard task for me as I solely believe in ONE GOD.
______________________________________________________________
Make me stop believing in God, i bet no one can.

Your question says tell me who created the universe and then i will stop believing in God.

I can't tell you who created it if there was no being to create it, there is no way to respond to that question and make a convincing case that doesn't agree with you in the same breath so to speak.
 
  • #78
Reply

So you all mean to say that the creation of the universe was just a scientific mistake, and that the extra genious civilised beings, who are so called humans, were all born by mistake.Don't you wonder that all the creation wasn't by mistake or coincidence, but was pre-planned by God.
Please don't seek for hell, just establish a firm belief in God. :mad:
 
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  • #79
What mistake? To have a mistake you have to have a plan. The alternative view is that there was no plan. You are just so wound up with your theological view that you can't even perceive a non-theological view. But they exist, and in spite of your opinion, they are not nasty.
 
  • #80
Reply to SelfAdjoint

Look, you are talking very illogical. Can you please give me about five reasons to prove that God doesn't exists.
 
  • #81
Razi Abid said:
Look, you are talking very illogical. Can you please give me about five reasons to prove that God doesn't exists.
How about if you give one good reason to prove why 'he' does ?

[edit]
Oops, sorry I just read the title of this thread. Nevermind responding, Razi Abid.
 
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  • #82
All of you are missing something crucial

modmans2ndcoming said:
if that is the case, then the universe cannot possible exist since memory must have existed before the universe, except, before the universe is a meaningless term since until the universe formed, there was no before. since there was no before, then memory could not have been in existence to make the universe and as such, the universe could not form. :smile:

We can never get anywhere in the discussions which god or universe is traced back in TIME.you have to know that time is just one of the dimensions like space and other.so when the universe or matter was created so was time,at that very instant.Even space was created and is being continuously being created.thats is why objects in the universe are moving further apart.Its proved experimentally.
Comments Welcome!
 
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  • #83
reply to boulder head

look boulder head, if you concentrate on the systamatic way the nature works then you'll be bound to think that this just cannot happen by itself.
CONCENTRATE ON NATURE AND ITS EXISTENCE :smile:
 
  • #84
If any of you had read Dr. Kaku's Carp analogy, you would realize that that can relate to us, like the carp were un-able to fathom up, we can't fathom the existence of a God, or even that fact that he was always there, and never was born and that he created time and there was no time before that, so if there is no time how did things come to pass? and things such as that. Just as if the carp scientist would be deemed crazy to asume such things happen above the water ( yet those things do exist), you deem people who believe in an omni-potent being (or the rain effecting our universe), crazy!. Even though there actually is one.

Our minds can't grasp this concept, just like the carp have no concept of up, we have no concept of God.

God is pulling those strings...
 
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  • #85
selfAdjoint said:
What mistake? To have a mistake you have to have a plan. The alternative view is that there was no plan. You are just so wound up with your theological view that you can't even perceive a non-theological view. But they exist, and in spite of your opinion, they are not nasty.


and you are so wound up with your scientific view that you can't even percieve a non-evolutionistic view. One takes belief, and the other takes hard evidence, that happens to be taken in an extremely unaccurate way that gives extremely unaccurate results (carbon dating), and scientific "guesses" made by men that are in reality scared to admit that there is a God because that makes humankind "inferior".

That is the reason why scientists have not liked the idea of God. It is too complex an idea for the scientific lab. They can't handle the fact that there is something that is inexplicable from the human scientific understanding. What happens when something is unexplicable? Scientists attack it until they discover when, how,and why it works. They can't do this with God so, they are intimidated when confronted with God. I've seen it. They are not quick to dispute it because it is false, no, they are quick to dispute it because they can't scientifically explain it. Therefore, they get defensive.
 
  • #86
shadowman said:
One takes belief, and the other takes hard evidence

If your saying there is Hard-evidence for Evolutiont then your wrong, a lot of the evidence has been turned up false, even Darwin said at the end of his life that what he wrote was a load of bull. And Comparitive Embryology was rejected by ALL the evolutionists at the time and it was proved wrong! Yet you can open a science book and it will still have that in there!

The guy who invented the Classing system eg. Phylum and all that ( i can't remember his name) was a christian creationist, yet the evolutionists used it to prove evolution.

Though micro evolution has been proven (which i believe happens) macro evolution hasn't been proved, they got a lizards leg and somthing elses leg and said look they look similar but they have never found the "lizard thingy" which is half way inbetween or even the stages inbetween that!. We had to do a debate in our school on Evolution Vs Creation and the creationists won you know why? The people looking for prove for Evolutionism couldn't find any, that wasn't already dis-proved by creationism.
 
  • #87
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
If your saying there is Hard-evidence for Evolutiont then your wrong, a lot of the evidence has been turned up false.


I know this... that's what I was saying. carbod dating is an inaccurate way to date things, but it is still used, etc. what I was trying to convey in my reply was that modern scientists run from God. The "hard evidence" is wrong. I said hard evidence because that is what they think they have.
 
  • #88
Ok, so we don't have perfect evidence for our many theories of the birth of the universe. But how much hard evidence do you have for the existence of God? None. All you say is oh we have faith, that's all we need, and do you think scientists don't have faith? Sure they do. But their's is at least that the latest theories will prove some things, and not 'we have faith that something is there despite a complete lack of evidence in any shape or form'. Where is your CMB for God? Your Higgs for the 'great one'? The only form of evidence creationists conjure up are from the mishaps of science - where science has made a mistake. You don't use your own evidence, you just twist scientifical evidence to make it sound like you do. You are cynics towards science (the real world) and you have been brainwashed i am afraid. And don't reply saying that scientists have been brainwashed. Because they haven't. Scientists base their assumptions and estimates on true evidence, creationists base theirs on the fact that a holy book told them, and lots and lots and lots of people believe it so it must be true - and now i am going to heaven.

Open your eyes, and take a look at reality - real space, real time, real evidence, Science.

K_
 
  • #89
actually there are constantly being discoveries made that only the christian bible can explain - i.e. several years back group of archeologists found a set of scrolls - they later found out only way to explain them was that they were the scrolls of the red sea or sommit - which is mentioned in the bible and would explain how they got to where they were found
 
  • #90
Razi Abid said:
So you all mean to say that the creation of the universe was just a scientific mistake, and that the extra genious civilised beings, who are so called humans, were all born by mistake.Don't you wonder that all the creation wasn't by mistake or coincidence, but was pre-planned by God.
Please don't seek for hell, just establish a firm belief in God. :mad:


Firstly: I don't need to seek for hell, I'm already living there. But my hatred of ym existence is not the issue here.

I would argue humans are not "extra genious" and for the vast majority are not even rational.

No i don't wonder.

A mistake implies that there was some other purpose in mind. Your very diction indicates that you will never be swayed, you cannot form a sentence without showing that you believe in God and the rest of us are wrong. I don't believe my existence is a mistake (birth control jokes aside) because i do not believe that there was any supernatural being to make such a mistake. My existence simply is, it is the result of a long serious of natural, chemical processes. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
  • #91
TsunamiJoe said:
actually there are constantly being discoveries made that only the christian bible can explain - i.e. several years back group of archeologists found a set of scrolls - they later found out only way to explain them was that they were the scrolls of the red sea or sommit - which is mentioned in the bible and would explain how they got to where they were found


Finding archeological evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah is a little bit different than finding archeological evidence of God coming down and taking the prohpet away in "a chariot of fire".

Show me that, then i'll be convinced by archeology.
 
  • #92
Its Fairly Obvious no one is going to change anyone's minds here.

Though it one thing has been proven in the bible i think its safe to assume that the rest is true.

Anyway, what's wrong living a morally correct life?
 
  • #93
Dumb Asses

Razi Abid said:
Look, you are talking very illogical. Can you please give me about five reasons to prove that God doesn't exists.


Jesus Christ! Jumping Jehova! I can't believe this "discussion" is happening here. There is obviously no way one can prove or disprove the existence of something outside of nature (supernatural beings like gods and devils) through "logic" or otherwise. So there is no way that you would EVER know whether something like that exists.

I don't know what any of your professions are, but any of you taking one side or another cannot honestly call himself a scientist (or even a rational thinker).

I'm just a poster on this board, but can someone please direct this crap to some other forum?? :mad:
 
  • #94
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
Its Fairly Obvious no one is going to change anyone's minds here.

Though it one thing has been proven in the bible i think its safe to assume that the rest is true.

Statement ONE: The smartest thing said on this thread.

Statement TWO: The absolute stupidest thing I've seen in this forum.
:mad:
 
  • #95
See what I mean?
 
  • #96
oh no

What do you mean, if one thing in the bible is true then the rest is true? so you are also saying then, if this applies to other theories, that because we have discovered the proton, then the universe started in a big bang, white holes exist, the higgs boson doesn't need searching for because it definitely exists. You have just thrown your own argument out of the window. Well done, another illogical statement from a creationist. Oh well.

K_
 
  • #97
felipefas said:
Are you all trying to play God?. The meaning of God is what is in question. Not the definition. God as an idea was created to represent the creator of things we cannot understand. The moment we learn how anything works, it is not an event made by God anymore but the result of some force that must be created by God. In other words, God by definition is the creator of anything we are too ignorant to know yet. Trying to explaing God or attribute any characteristics (!memory!, PLEASE) is putting him in a level with us or below us. He automatically stops being God. If you would ever want to get an insight on God. Try a human psychology course.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnice to meat you, God.
 
  • #98
I actually ment my first statement :-/ I meant "See no-one will change anyones minds"

And i didn't mean it like that. The Big Bang could of been created by God for all you know!. And I am not a creationist. And its not only 1 thing in the bible.

Creation: Most things proven, all attacks by evolutionists repelled, no mistakes made.

Evolution: Most things "proven", then distroyed by other EVOLUTIONISTS! or Creationists. Millions of Mistakes made, yet those mistakes still taught to the youth.

People don't want to believe in Creation becuase its hard to comprehend, hence them beliving evolution. Even though creation still has more proof then Evolution. Society wants to believe that Humans are the most omni-potent "race" or thing, they don't like to think of themself as lower then somthing else.

Even those strata ( i think they r called that) layers in the rock, have been proven to be able to form quickly in a horisontal pattern rather then slowly over millions of years laid down from top to bottom.

Give me some evidence that I cannot refute and I will become a evolutionist.
 
  • #99
God is the purest form of energy from which everything springs, His memory is in the DNA of the living and the 22 quantum particles that form the base of all matter.
 
  • #100
now even i find that ridiculous..
 

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