Is Michael Shermer a Disciple of Satan?

[Moridin]

Young Earth creationist Kent Hovind sure thinks so.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1410330225420430733

This is a "debate" between Michael Shermer, director of the skeptic society, and Kent Hovind, creationist extraordinaire. This was quite entertaining, not only because Hovind asserted that Shermer worked for Satan. Although debating creationists is just as much of a "debate" as hunting dairy cows with a high-powered rifle and scope is hunting, this is just sad.

Some more glaring and quite amusing errors made by Hovind includes

- Asserting that evolutionary biology implies moral nihilism.
- Asserting that a world-wide flood can produce the geological column and fossils.
- Asserting that flood geology is compatible with oil and coal deposits.
- Asserting that the flood produced grand canyon and at the same time asserting that the strata layers seen is also produced by the flood, which is contradictory.
- Asserting that a world-wide flood can produce petrified trees.
- Asserting that evolution is a religion.
- Asserting that abiogenesis is spontaneous generation in the Pasteur sense of the word.
- Asserting that nuclear fusion has never been observed.
- Asserting that evolution is the dumbest and most dangerous idea in the history of the world.
- Asserting that the big bang and planetary formation leads to Hitler and Marxism, the rejection of logic and abortion (and hell if you do not trust Christ).
- Asserting that evolution claims that a dog came from a rock.
- Asserting that evolution is a dying religion surviving on your tax dollars.
- Asserting that evolution is anti-science.

I especially liked this line from Hovind.

"Michael Shermer is the editor of skeptic magazine. He is absolutely correct to be skeptical of some of the dumb things people believe out there. There are some weirdos in this world folks".

 

[robertm]

Though I think most of christianity is worthless, I would still fight for anyone's right to believe/practice it... these "young earth" creationist however, should not even be given opportunities to speak in a scientific setting... maybe a century ago, maybe, but now NONE of their arguments have ANY scientific validity.

As an aside, it really saddens me to see the shows now playing on History Channel/Discovery Channel: several UFO conspiracy shows, Monster Quest, Search for the Lost Arc, ect...

Funny thing though, they play these right along side The Universe and Wild Discovery and Modern Marvels...

 

[Holocene]

As an aside, it really saddens me to see the shows now playing on History Channel/Discovery Channel: several UFO conspiracy shows, Monster Quest, Search for the Lost Arc, ect...

Discovery went to Hell many years ago.

They've replaced science with crap like "Monster garage", "American Chopper", "Man vs Wild" etc..

Don't get me wrong, those shows are enetertaining, and I find myself watching from time to time, bit I think it was too much of a departure for Discovery, and not for the better.

 

[moe darklight]

Man, I'll give Hovind the fact that the guy is one of the quickest, most clever and charismatic debaters I've seen ... Shermer (who is a good and charismatic public speaker) comes off a tad slow and unsure in the debate; and too many times either fails to rebut Hovin's claims, or completely misses the point and goes off on some straw-man.

Shermer (and other skeptics I've seen debate) should understand what Hovind clearly does about debate: he is not there to preach to the choir; he is there to gracefully defeat an opponent. For every one of his opponent's attacks, he must reciprocate with an offensive defense.— there's no point in bringing in more men into the battlefield if you're not using them to kill off your enemy's; all you get is more dead soldiers.

(GONG)

As an aside, it really saddens me to see the shows now playing on History Channel/Discovery Channel: several UFO conspiracy shows, Monster Quest, Search for the Lost Arc, ect...

Ugh. I know what you mean. It is possible to be entertaining and educate at the same time (I.e myth busters)... but where does making a bike for Will Smith come into the picture.

And all those conspiracy/ghost/paranormal shows are just disgusting.

 

[robertm]

Yeah I grew up on the old discovery and have slowly watched them go down hill... I guess ratings are more important then science over there... History Channel is playing The Universe tonight though! That is an excellent show!

Sorry Mordin not trying to hijack your thread!

It is sad that there are people who actually believe the crap that people like Kevin Hovind are vomiting out...

 

[D H]

Man, I'll give Hovind the fact that the guy is one of the quickest, most clever and charismatic debaters I've seen ... Shermer (who is a good and charismatic public speaker) comes off a tad slow and unsure in the debate; and too many times either fails to rebut Hovin's claims, or completely misses the point and goes off on some straw-man.

It is far easier to conduct a debate when one is not hindered by constraints such as avoiding logical fallacies, staying on topic, answering the question that was asked, or just plain making sense.

 

[Vanadium 50]

When was this debate? Isn't Hovind in prison now?

 

[binzing]

I know it's not exactly related but...Anybody here ever seen a picture of a Church of Satan mass? Its so stupid, its just like Halloween for these people.

 

[binzing]

And yes, according to Wiki he's in the can for tax evasion.

 

[phyzmatix]

It is far easier to conduct a debate when one is not hindered by constraints such as avoiding logical fallacies, staying on topic, answering the question that was asked, or just plain making sense.

I agree. There are lots of people who can simply go on automatic and let the verbal diarrhoea flow without inserting any of the "filters" mentioned by DH between brain and tongue.

 

[Cyrus]

Oh boy, Kent Hovind just started talking and he's describing a computer and how it does not know what made it. Yooooookay...

HAHAH, he's making "Predictions" on KNOWN RESULTS. What BOZO.

"Dogs came from a rock"? Does this guy even have an ounce of listening comprehension? I don't think he came from a rock, that would be insulting to rocks everywhere. Even they are less dense than this guys head.

How can people be this stupid.

 

[binzing]

Why can't all the fanatics find a remote island and all move there? Then they could come up with all the crackpot ideas and have as many "spiritual unions" (damn FLDS...mormons in general are weird...) as they want.

 

[Cyrus]

Why can't all the fanatics find a remote island and all move there? Then they could come up with all the crackpot ideas and have as many "spiritual unions" (damn FLDS...mormons in general are weird...) as they want.

I'd drop a thermo-nuclear bunker busting bomb on their island

EDIT: No, Id drop them leaflets on how they are stupid. Because they are on an island, there's nothing they can do about it! HAAH!

 

[binzing]

I think anybody would bomb the place.

 

[Cyrus]

I think anybody would bomb the place.

It'd be so much more fun to make them suffer though.

 

[Moridin]

When was this debate? Isn't Hovind in prison now?

Yes. He went to jail because he refused to pay taxes because he did not want to contribute money to public education.

 

[Cyrus]

going back to the original post by moridin i have to ask him to go around the world to different continents and try to observe the geologic column..it simply is not in every part of the world and not even in all of america,the places which have a "jumbled up" geology are ignored because the don`t fit the textbook order.

also,look up the latest on petrified trees and you will see that even respected geologist admit now that petrified trees HAVE to be fossilised extremely quickly or they will simply rot away..moreover,there are so many excamples of petrified tress going through different rock strata that the chances of all of them being caused by earthquakes tossing them into rock that is "billions of years old" is really tiny..

Alot of hovind`s theological attacks on evolutionist/athiest people are pretty lame but the questions he poses these scientists in his debates are carefully chosen simply because they are so contrary to evolution/old Earth theory.

Oh, and a theory that cannot be proven against a baptist preacher in dozens of live debates really deserves to called a belief system because scientists "believe" what they teach.
Just ask yourselves why Hovind never gets destroyed by all these super-smart guys with all their research and knowledge...NONE of them,and i have watched many debates comes up with direct answers to any of his big questions..

oh,one more thing..if you follow evolution back to just after the Earth was formed and the surface started to cool and harden and became rock...then it supposidly rained down on the rock which made the "soup" which gave rise to single cell organisms and on to DOGS...so evolutionists do kind of believe dogs and all life came from a rock..

for a science forum you guys really do seem very narrow in your reading of things like this...come on show me the proof of evolution...and remember that at the end of his life Darwin renounced his theory and said he was wrong!..bet your science teacher never told you that one,right??

Boy, you're some sort of world class scientist eh? Nice try, I suggest you read some more (and I don't mean your bible).

Your post shows you know absolutely nothing about science, and can't even pay attention to what was said by Shermer at the start of his talk.

Did you know darwin has an award? I'd look into it, I think you are a prime candidate to win it!

 

[Santa1]

I don't think you have the proper evidence to say that Darwin renounced his own theory on his deathbed. Even if you had, would that really change anything at all?

so evolutionists do kind of believe dogs and all life came from a rock..

I can't recall evolution claiming that anything evolved from a rock. Evolution explains the diversity of life, not it's origins.

come on show me the proof of evolution

Do a search on google on "observed instances of speciation".
Also look at this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

 

[moe darklight]

also,look up the latest on petrified trees and you will see that even respected geologist admit now that petrified trees HAVE to be fossilised extremely quickly or they will simply rot away..moreover,there are so many excamples of petrified tress going through different rock strata that the chances of all of them being caused by earthquakes tossing them into rock that is "billions of years old" is really tiny..

Do you have a link to articles about either of these claims? — If this is true then it is definitely interesting, but I haven't been able to find a source for this.

oh,one more thing..if you follow evolution back to just after the Earth was formed and the surface started to cool and harden and became rock...then it supposidly rained down on the rock which made the "soup" which gave rise to single cell organisms and on to DOGS...so evolutionists do kind of believe dogs and all life came from a rock..

The reason no biologist will answer this question, is because this is beyond the realm of a biologist, and beyond the realm of evolution. This is where chemistry comes in, and organic chemistry is a relatively new science (especially when we are talking about studying the chemical processes related to living organisms), so you can't possibly expect us to have all the answers right now (i.e: The God Of The Gaps).

Organic compounds have been shown to form from inorganic compounds under various conditions (is it a coincidence that these conditions are very much like the conditions we expect the Earth to have had during its youth?).

It doesn't mean a cell just formed from a rock. It would've been enough for a replicating RNA-like (though much much more rudimentary) molecule to have formed to start the process, which is not at all inconceivable, considering the billions of billions of chemical reactions that were going on at the moment throughout the earth.

I don't know much about the subject, and even those who do are far from really working out the details, but if you do some research or ask others here who might know more about this, I'm sure you'll understand why saying that evolution means a dog came from a rock (or even that a cell came from a rock) is beyond hyperbole.

and remember that at the end of his life Darwin renounced his theory and said he was wrong!..bet your science teacher never told you that one,right??

Yes. Most of us are aware of that myth, which arose from a fiction story published for a religious magazine (look up "The Lady Hope Story"). Darwin and his family have clearly stated that he was an agnostic to his death.

 

[Gokul43201]

tourettes, your post is so filled with blatant nonfacts, it's hard to decide how far to go with a debunking. I'll pick one rather unimportant but oft repeated piece of untruth. It's unimportant to anyone that has half a clue about how science works, but seems to be a big deal to the YEC crowd.

...and remember that at the end of his life Darwin renounced his theory and said he was wrong!..bet your science teacher never told you that one,right??

Right, and rightfully so. Because, for one thing, science does not concern itself with deathbed conversions, as you imagine it does. And secondly, this story is nothing more than a rumor spread by christians following Lady Hope's original speech through her hat.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i1/darwin_recant.asp

From the last link:

Darwin's biographer, Dr James Moore, lecturer in the history of science and technology at The Open University in the UK, has spent 20 years researching the data over three continents. He produced a 218-page book examining what he calls the 'Darwin legend'.7 He says there was a Lady Hope. Born Elizabeth Reid Cotton in 1842, she married a widower, retired Admiral Sir James Hope, in 1877. She engaged in tent evangelism and in visiting the elderly and sick in Kent in the 1880s, and died of cancer in Sydney, Australia, in 1922, where her tomb may be seen to this day.

Moore concludes that Lady Hope probably did visit Charles between Wednesday, 28 September and Sunday, 2 October 1881, almost certainly when Francis and Henrietta were absent, but his wife, Emma, probably was present. He describes Lady Hope as 'a skilled raconteur, able to summon up poignant scenes and conversations, and embroider them with sentimental spirituality'. He points out that her published story contained some authentic details as to time and place, but also factual inaccuracies—Charles was not bedridden six months before he died, and the summer house was far too small to accommodate 30 people. The most important aspect of the story, however, is that it does not say that Charles either renounced evolution or embraced Christianity. He merely is said to have expressed concern over the fate of his youthful speculations and to have spoken in favour of a few people's attending a religious meeting. The alleged recantation/conversion are embellishments that others have either read into the story or made up for themselves. Moore calls such doings 'holy fabrication'!

It should be noted that for most of her married life Emma was deeply pained by the irreligious nature of Charles's views, and would have been strongly motivated to have corroborated any story of a genuine conversion, if such had occurred. She never did.

It therefore appears that Darwin did not recant, and it is a pity that to this day the Lady Hope story occasionally appears in tracts published and given out by well-meaning people.

 

[Cyrus]

the peppered moth is simply showing signs of micro-evolution(variation)..it already had the genes to change colour..these genes are not new,therefore it cannot really be called evolution..now,if this moth has really changed at a dna level,and the change is permanent then that could be evidence for evolution..

Wow, thanks Dr. Tourettes. PhD in biology and nonsense! aaamazing.

Please, enlighten us some more with your high school diploma of science.

Come one, win that Darwin award, I know you can do it!

 

[Cyrus]

Im watching the Q&A part of the video now, and WOW. Is this guy STUPID. He is babbling on, and on, and on about this animal and that animal and how its not evolution. I'd love for some evolutionary biologists to debate him and show him how he should shut his mouth and stop pretending to know science. Its BEYOND pathetic.

 

[Cyrus]

let`s have some more...

Oh come on, I'm sure you have a lot more nonsense you can share with us. Please don't stop. I really do enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself.

 

[Cyrus]

Do a search on google on "observed instances of speciation".
Also look at this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
Report Post Reply With Quote

well,i looked at the experiments to creat hydrid nettles and it`s stretching it a bit to say that`s proof of evolution i think

Oh, so you, Dr. Tourettes, world expert in evolution, have just given your expert opinion on other peoples research. I can't wait to read your publications. You opinion really means a lot on a subject you don't even understand.

(The more nonsense you post, the more nasty I will be with you). Its really in bad taste for you to come to a science forum, know NOTHING about science, and then bla bla bla to us about how we don't know anything about science.

 

[Santa1]

i did not see one direct quote from the scientists doing that plant hybrid research claim their work to be evidence of evolution.

Your point being? If i publish proof about something, and then say nothing about it being proof, does that make it false?
And you watched a fraction of 1 page out of 536000 results on google, now of course I'm not going to claim they all show evidence or are even positive to evolution, but let's say 1% of them are evidence, that's 5359 pages left for you to watch before claiming it is "all the evidence I can come up with".
And you say we have not given you any evidence but rather have only insulted you?
I'm glad science is largely independent of the public.

 

[Cyrus]

i hoped you guys could shut me up with real evidence...al i have got from you is insults...very scientific

That's because your a troll and didnt post to learn anything. You just posted your smug little comment igonrantly and think you know something about everything. I strongly urge you to get an education and wise up.

You don't even have any 'points', you just have a bunch of moronic, blatantly wrong facts.

Could you name, oh, I don't know, even ONE book on science you have ever read in your life above the high school level?

 

[Santa1]

well, what about all my other points then?..show your peers how stupid i am and blow all my points out the water right here and now...

No I'll use the same counter as you. "Where is your proof?"

 

[Santa1]

It's not up to him to give examples, the burden is on you to show that any of your propositions are true.

 

[Cyrus]

It's not up to him to give examples, the burden is on you to show that any of your propositions are true.

What part of read a book can't you comprehend, Mr. Big boy? You do know there are libraries full of these things. There filled with this thing called paper, and a cover. They are usually located on shelves.

 

[Cyrus]

what do i have to prove...i am not religious,i simply can`t see the evidence you talk about

Thats becuase you don't know a damn thing about biology. So you don't even know what evidence is, or how to look for it.

BUT what you DO know how to do, is give your opinion, quite ignorantly, on the matter and lectures others.

 

[Cyrus]

it`s funny how inteligent poeple have lowered this to insults,why not try to win your agument instead?

Because your not here to learn. So, I am going to have fun with you. Trust me, I can go all night toe-to-toe if you want to.

 

[Cyrus]

teach me...i am here because this is an interesting subject and there are holes in the evidence for evolution as you all know...does not mean evolution did not happen,just seems there is not much in the way of proof..

Yeah, right. And I have a bridge to sell you in NY. Ask moridin, he's a nicer guy than me. He can recommend you some books. I am not going to waste my time helping you though.

Isnt that lovely, you already know there "isnt much in way of proof". Pulling stuff out of our ass again are we?

So you, who knows nothing about biology, know there "isnt much in way of proof" hmmmmmmmmm...

You should know, I hate people like you. And I do take pleasure in publicly insulting you. Its going to go on. Are you sure you want to keep going with me? -I'm not going to stop.

 

[Cyrus]

thanks for a great debate i go home with my tail firmly between my legs...put in my place..dazzled with your solid evidence and extremely cutious manner...you really destroyed me cyrus...

What are you talking about, there isn't much in the way of proof of what you just said. I don't believe you. I believe what I want to believe.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to put my finger in my ears.

Dude, just quietly go away. Dont get a migraine doing hard stuff, like thinking.

 

[binzing]

How the hell did petrified trees make it into here?

As for a book recommendation, how about a copy of my Biology book:
Biology Fifth Edition
Campbell, Reece, and Mitchell
Benjamin Cummings

It's a college level Bio book, and what I will be using for AP Bio next year.

 

[Cyrus]

How the hell did petrified trees make it into here?

As for a book recommendation, how about a copy of my Biology book:
Biology Fifth Edition
Campbell, Reece, and Mitchell
Benjamin Cummings

It's a college level Bio book, and what I will be using for AP Bio next year.

Binzing, you need to learn not to waste your time with people that are not willing to learn. He's not going to read your book. Hes just here to post his grand wisdom on how evolution is wrong based on nothing more than his opinion.

Spare your energy for people that are worth it.

 

[Cyrus]

Anyways, back to the video at hand. This bozo, Hovind, said "evolution is not part of science".

Wow, does this guy even TALK to any scientists? And then quotes the bible.

 

[binzing]

No, he COULDN'T read this book, its like 1200 pages long and size 12 font. I should be reading chapters 1-5, but I'll leave that for later this summer.

 

[Cyrus]

No, he COULDN'T read this book, its like 1200 pages long and size 12 font. I should be reading chapters 1-5, but I'll leave that for later this summer.

Plus, it has something called facts. Which he'd never be able to wrap his head around. I don't know if he'd even believe the guys name on the cover really wrote it!

 

[Cyrus]

Wow, he goes on: "It is absolutely impossible that everything was NOT created by a designer!"

ABSOLUTELY, 100%! Why, 'because that's just the way things are!'

This is amazingly insightful. Evolution must be wrong, because ...it just is.

 

[Cyrus]

Mama, mia. Now he's rewritting the second law of thermodynamics to suit his own definition!

Hes CLEARLY contradicting what the second law states, and using stupid examples of an woman getting old. I am glad they locked this nut up.

Also, did anyone notice how he always has EXACTLY the right slides to answer the questions? It seems fairly obvious to me that he's planting people to ask these questions so he can look smart.

Now he just said "NO fossils can count for evolution". What an f'in moron.

OH BOY. Now he's saying evolution does not allow you to do open heart surgery. (1) Evolution and surgery have nothing to do with each other. (2) It was the CHURCH that prevented medical science in the middle ages. This guy really is a jackass.

It gets better, he says dragons exist!

Now my side hurts from laughing, and my jaw hurts from hitting the floor so many times.

 

[moe darklight]

I stand by my statement that Hovind is no moron. In fact, he is clearly quite bright and an extremely gifted public speaker and debater.

That said, he is just as clearly either

1. mentally ill
2. in denial
3. well aware that he is wrong, and doing this purely for celebrity, money, being seen as a leader/martyr, or simply the thrill of making his sheep jump through invisible hoops

It is hard not to laugh at his arguments if you know the science behind his claims, but let's not forget that most people (sadly) don't. In fact, many people believe in evolution without knowing anything about it! are they any better just because they happened to have randomly picked the right side?

 

[Chi Meson]

I'm totally in your camp on this one Moe. It's like the moon-landing-conspiracy-hoax hoax. I cringe when hearing a bad argument that's trying to support the side of truth .

 

[Cyrus]

I stand by my statement that Hovind is no moron. In fact, he is clearly quite bright and an extremely gifted public speaker and debater.

That said, he is just as clearly either

1. mentally ill
2. in denial
3. well aware that he is wrong, and doing this purely for celebrity, money, being seen as a leader/martyr, or simply the thrill of making his sheep jump through invisible hoops

It is hard not to laugh at his arguments if you know the science behind his claims, but let's not forget that most people (sadly) don't. In fact, many people believe in evolution without knowing anything about it! are they any better just because they happened to have randomly picked the right side?

Hes gifted how? He talks fast, throws in wrong facts, and misses the point. He does this all at once so he seems like, "wow this guy must be smart." Well, no. Exactly how you deduce he is a gifted debater when he MISSES the point, is beyond me. Also, shermer is sitting there next to him telling the audience the flaws, spot on. Now, if they want to ignore him, which you can see they do as they clap and shout for Hovind when he's done talking, they too are a bunch of stupid morons. No matter what you tell them, there going to clap for Hovnid like a bunch of trained monkeys.

To the left, we have a real scientist explaining science to you in very simple terms. Ok, let's ignore him and believe what the guy on the right is saying about science. I mean, he did teach HIGH school biology. Oh yeah, and he runs Geriatric Park.

The guy is a self deluded scam artist. I hope they have fun with him in prison, if you know what I mean.

He said, "you can't prove that fossil ever gave birth or had a kid". I would have said, well we digged up your dead father. Sadly we can't prove he's your dead father either; therefore, you're a bastard.

 

[moe darklight]

Hes gifted how? He talks fast, throws in wrong facts, and misses the point.

If the art of public speaking and debating were the same as the art of formulating a cogent argument, then the world's dictatorships would be free and prosperous nations.

As a speaker he is engaging, funny, charismatic, and very quick... while Shermer often ran out of time and fumbled, Hovind was able to present all of his points within the given time frames and in an organized fashion; even when his answered required more time than is needed, he managed to direct the audience as to where they should look for reference.

Again, I'm not saying his claims are in any way based on reality; I'm just saying he's very good at what he does.

 

[Cyrus]

If the art of public speaking and debating were the same as the art of formulating a cogent argument, then the world's dictatorships would be free and prosperous nations.

As a speaker he is engaging, funny, charismatic, and very quick... while Shermer often ran out of time and fumbled, Hovind was able to present all of his points within the given time frames and in an organized fashion; even when his answered required more time than is needed, he managed to direct the audience as to where they should look for reference.

Again, I'm not saying his claims are in any way based on reality; I'm just saying he's very good at what he does.

You'll really have to point out where shermer 'fumbled'. IMO he answered them all head on.

He said, basically, its all in my cd up there on the table. Go buy it! ...

Its real easy to stay within the time frame when all you have to do is make up a BS answer.

 

[moe darklight]

You'll really have to point out where shermer 'fumbled'.

Shermer's answers were not always spot on. Or at least, they were only spot on if you know the scientific background, but for someone who knows little or nothing about biology or chemistry, talking about nucleotide formation is like talking Chinese.

 

[Cyrus]

Shermer's answers were not always spot on. Or at least, they were only spot on if you know the scientific background, but for someone who knows little or nothing about biology or chemistry, talking about nucleotide formation is like talking Chinese.

Thats why they were spot on. They were exactly as technical as they could have been. He can't EDUCATE them on a question like the ones that were being asked in two mins. Its the job of the people in that audience to do some researach and gain some knowledge. IMO, there were many STUPID question by that STUPID audience.

DA, how do you prove man came from dat dere rock? Daaaaaaaaa hyuck.

Well bubba....just forget it. Questions that showed they didnt do ANY background research into the subject matter.

If I attend a lecture from a different department on campus that I know nothing about, I keep my mouth shut so others can ask questions who know what they are talking about.

 

[robertm]

Thats why they were spot on. They were exactly as technical as they could have been. He can't EDUCATE them on a question like the ones that were being asked in two mins. Its the job of the people in that audience to do some researach and gain some knowledge. IMO, there were many STUPID question by that STUPID audience.

DA, how do you prove man came from dat dere rock? Daaaaaaaaa hyuck.

Well bubba....just forget it. Questions that showed they didnt do ANY background research into the subject matter.

If I attend a lecture from a different department on campus that I know nothing about, I keep my mouth shut so others can ask questions who know what they are talking about.

Exactly Cyrus. It is a sad day when giving concise scientific answers in a debate is considered fumbling... Unless the point of the debate is something besides coming to an understanding about the subject at hand, science should be the ultimate argument; if not the only argument!

I wonder what Hitchens would have to say about this lowlife Hovind...

 

[Cyrus]

Exactly Cyrus. It is a sad day when giving concise scientific answers in a debate is considered fumbling... Unless the point of the debate is something besides coming to an understanding about the subject at hand, science should be the ultimate argument; if not the only argument!

I wonder what Hitchens would have to say about this lowlife Hovind...

Man, I love hitchens. That guy has wit.

 

[grunger]

http://www.arn.org/docs/wells/jw_pepmothshort.htm


please discuss this science paper and decide if the peppered moth is proof of evolution.

Thanks...