Is My Reasoning Correct for Determining Compactness?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of compactness in mathematical sets, particularly in the context of real numbers. Participants are evaluating various statements regarding the properties of compact sets, using definitions and theorems such as the Heine-Borel theorem and the Bolzano-Weierstrass theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are attempting to determine the truth of several statements about compactness, including the implications of being finite or infinite, the existence of maximum and minimum values, and the conditions under which a set can be compact. Questions arise regarding counterexamples and the reasoning behind certain definitions.

Discussion Status

There is an ongoing exploration of the statements with some participants agreeing on certain points while questioning the reasoning behind others. Guidance is offered regarding the need for counterexamples and clarifications on definitions, but no consensus has been reached on all statements.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating through definitions and theorems related to compactness, with some expressing uncertainty about specific examples and the implications of boundedness and accumulation points. There is mention of the empty set as a counterexample and the need for clarity on the properties of infinite sets.

hartigan83
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I have been asked to determine if the following statements are ture or false...I have attepmted to answer each question using my understanding of the definitions of compact (a set is compact iff every open cover of S contains a finite subcover), the statement of the Heine-borel Theorem( A subset S of R is compact iff S is closed and bounded), and the Bolzano-Weierstrass theorem( If a bounded sub set S of R contains infinitely many points, then there exists at least one point in R that is an accumulation point of S). Please tell me if I am using reasoning that is not correct for any of them...Thanks

Every finite set is compact.
True. ex [0,3]

No infinite set is compact.
False, but I cannot think of a counter example...
I was thinking that a set could be bounded and still contain infinitley many points, but am not sure if it would be closed.

If a set is compact then it has a max and a min.
False it must also be non empty.

If a set has a max and a min then it is compact.
False, (2,3) has a max and a min but is not ompact.

Some undounded sets are compact.
False due to the hiene-borel theorem

If S is a compact subset of R then there is at least one point in R that is an accumulation point of S
Flase, it need not be compact, just bounded and contain infinitely many points.

If S is compact and x is an accumulation point of S then x is an element of S.
True, Since S is closed it contains all of its accumulation points.

If S is unbounded, then S has at least one accumulation point.
False, S must be bounded, and contain infinitely many points by Bolozano -weierstrass.
 
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Every finite set is compact.
True. ex [0,3]
Agreed, but why?

[0,3] is not an example: [0,3] is an infinite set.



No infinite set is compact.
False, but I cannot think of a counter example...
I was thinking that a set could be bounded and still contain infinitley many points, but am not sure if it would be closed.
Agreed. You already stated a counter-example.

Incidentally... if you're given any set S, there's an easy way to find a closed set that contains S...


If a set is compact then it has a max and a min.
False it must also be non empty.
Agree that it's false. You just need to state that the empty set is a counterexample.

That said, if you want to claim that any nonempty compact set has a max and a min, you need a reason!


If a set has a max and a min then it is compact.
False, (2,3) has a max and a min but is not ompact.
Agreed that the answer is false.

(2,3) is not a counter example, though: it has neither a max nor a min.


Some undounded sets are compact.
False due to the hiene-borel theorem
Agreed.


If S is a compact subset of R then there is at least one point in R that is an accumulation point of S
Flase, it need not be compact, just bounded and contain infinitely many points.
Answer is false, but
(1) your reasoning is wrong
(2) You don't need to reason, just produce a counter example.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are arguing against the converse! You sound like you're trying to disprove:

"If there is at least one point in R that is an accumulation point of S, then S is a compact subset of R".


If S is compact and x is an accumulation point of S then x is an element of S.
True, Since S is closed it contains all of its accumulation points.
Agreed.


If S is unbounded, then S has at least one accumulation point.
False, S must be bounded, and contain infinitely many points by Bolozano -weierstrass.
Agree that it's false. Your reasoning is wrong, though. You've made the same mistake as you did two questions ago. The B-W theorem says:

"If S is bounded and infinite, then S has an accumulation point"

In particular, it does not say:

"If S has an accumulation point, then S is bounded and infinite".

(In fact, it's easy to find unbounded sets that have accumulation points)
 
Hurkyl said:
Agreed, but why?

[0,3] is not an example: [0,3] is an infinite set.





Hurkyl said:
Incidentally... if you're given any set S, there's an easy way to find a closed set that contains S...

How?
Hurkyl said:
Agree that it's false. You just need to state that the empty set is a counterexample.

That said, if you want to claim that any nonempty compact set has a max and a min, you need a reason!

I have a lemma in my book that states this.
Hurkyl said:
Agreed that the answer is false.

(2,3) is not a counter example, though: it has neither a max nor a min.

I am not sure what to look at for a counter example. I was thinking the closed interval [2,3] but then that is compact so it does not work

Hurkyl said:
Answer is false,...
[1,5] is compact and the set of accumulation points is [1,5] and 1 is an element of R


Hurkyl said:
Agree that it's false. Your reasoning is wrong, though. You've made the same mistake as you did two questions ago. The B-W theorem says:

"If S is bounded and infinite, then S has an accumulation point"

In particular, it does not say:

"If S has an accumulation point, then S is bounded and infinite".

(In fact, it's easy to find unbounded sets that have accumulation points)

Are open intervals bounded?
 
Hurkyl said:
Agreed, but why?

[0,3] is not an example: [0,3] is an infinite set.
What if I specified that it was the set of Natural numbers?
 
the set of natural numbers is infinite... a set like {1, 2, 3} is finite. Or perhaps just {1}
 

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