Is Pursuing Physics and Math a Rational Choice?

[vanesch]

Lots of good positive advice until this point vanesch! Why do you think all the fun jobs are only in physics research? Do you think all those teachers, programmers, finance types are suffering jobs that are no fun. As in many walks of life, many are, but (also) many are not! So if you end up having to leave physics-fun-land just plan carefully, and (if necessary) move around until you find another fun land.

First of all, my post was tongue-in-cheek (or at least, half so). The point was that if you're doing physics essentially motivated by going for a good career, then you're totally deluded. So the motivation must be something else. It's not money, it's not women, it's not partying, so it must be fun. So you do physics essentially out of fun - like you go on a holiday essentially out of fun, right ? That means that in the case you can keep doing physics for the rest of your life, your whole life will be fun - as if you went on a holiday for ever. Of course, that doesn't mean that other things can not be fun too. And yes, even physicists who don't do physics for ever can sometimes secure jobs which still give them a lot of fun.

 

[Fra]

That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life.

I think here we have the solution.

Life is a game - find your objective, estimate your odds and place your bets and learn.

Sure one can ask others for opinion, but there is no getting away from finally forming your own opinion of the odds. And all the time you spend reflecting over where your odds are "correct" your opponents grab market shares, so there is yet anothre choice to make. Wait and think and risk loosing possible gains, or just aim and fire, and learn from the outcome.

/Fredrik

 

[Howers]

You went on a "fun" course while others were trying to get the best assets for money and career. If you had an accident right now and died, you would have been the one who had most fun. And then you say that you did physics because "hard work will get you a good job" and that all that was "for nothing". No, it wasn't. You did fun things while others were doing hard stuff to prepare their professional life. You were on a holiday. By going to grad school, and doing a PhD, you can even prolong your "holiday" in fun physics land.

Just because I find a subject interesting does not mean I have "fun" being at school. Work is work, no matter how stimulating one may find it. I'd rather spend my holiday on a beach with friends rather than working through rigorous physics 24/7. Others are not doing hard stuff, I am doing hard stuff. The only difference is I find my field interesting, whereas they see it as a means to an end (although not in all cases, as experience tells me otherwise).

I don't like working through ridiculously hard problem sets and stressing over tests because of all the pressure and time constraints. The process of sitting down to get them done requires a lot of discipline, because time can be used for more trivial things like tv. I would rather worry about learning something than a GPA, but then that is not why we go to school. I find you "school being a holiday" an extremely weak argument. If people really feel that way, that they are having a blast in school and would rather be there instead of say taking a break and browsing the web from time to time than I may be in the wrong field. I however feel that is rarely the case.

Yes, I love learning how the universe is modeled with math and applying this for myself to everyday things like guitar strings. At the end of the day, I am very satisfied with what I know. But like a musician who can play really well, I imagine there were things he would have preffered to do other than intense training.

(edit: when I said I was up in space with physics I meant detached from the real world. I was just focusing on my studies and assuming everything would work out. Now I realize this may not be the case at all.)

That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life. That's the whole point of making a career choice to do what you like, not to expect some sort of payoff or reward. Becasue there isn't any- not for MDs, either, FWIW.

If you really want society to take care of you as a reward for doing work that society deems beneficial, then you should pick a different career- politics, for example. Finance. Law- and you can make a relatively painless swtich to patent law with a degree in science.

Assuming MDs don't royally screw up, they pretty much have guarentees set in stone. People don't go into professional programs only for the money either. I have friends law and they really enjoy what they do (well maybe not finance). With physics I feel ripped off, because after 10 years of training I am not even close to being on par. Not to mention the work is much harder, as most of them attested to after taking freshman physics.

 

[torquerotates]

Perhaps you can switch to an easier, but still somewhat interesting, field and still do physics as an amateur. That way you get rid of the stress.

 

[h0dgey84bc]

To address what I feel are the issues systematically:

Stress and Long Hours factor: Yes, a PhD/Academia is going to be stressful even if you love it, there are going to be time constraints, balancing TA'ing and deadlines, working at evenings/weekends. However is this not similar to most well paying jobs in industry, investment bankers/directors/CEOs/consultants work 70h+ weeks and no doubt are massivley stressed, and probably don't have a half the passion for there work that a typical academic might. They have the displeasure of just doing it as a means to an ends.

Finance: There are going to be big differences here obviously, if you go to gradschool then for the next 6 years you are going to be living on a relative pittance, maybe even getting into debt, following that the postdocs are only going to pay as well as a mediocare job your friends got 6 years earlier! You face a bohemian lifestyle and will be moving from postdoc to postdoc,for just a tiny shot a tenure if you've found out by this time you're actually any good at physics.
You will see your university friends salaries shoot up as they are promoted upwards, get themselves mortgages, nice cars 2.4 children etc.

Family life: you will need to find a partner who is supportive of moving from town to town every three years, kids?

So there is no doubt in my mind that there are sacrifices, and not only that but it is a big gamble...if you do all that and sacrifice so much, in 6 years academia could just spit you back out to industry anyway if you haven't delivered. You are essentially making a bet, gambling the conventional life and its comforts from a shot at making it as a Physicist.

It's not all negative though, the chance to work on something you're really passionate is a rare thing instead of having to run the rat race just to win material things. You will also likely get lots of chances to travel all over the world, and even live in other countries for a number of years, whereas most people will be tied to a company for years. You also get to be around people that share your passion, make friends with similar minded people, even maybe find a partner in, maybe not physics, but academia. Also the academic culture itself is very laid back and not structured like a corporation, another plus in my book.

It goes without saying you have to REALLY love physics to do this, and it is a massive decision you should know all the consequences of before making. You should ask yourself what do you really want out of life? A family, time at home with to go out with friends, a big house, a nice car, fancy holidays, security and routine in a job...or a big challenge, the chance (albeit slim) to maybe do something revolutionary and amazing, to work on something you would work on regardless if you were being funded. I think ultimatley you carry on aslong as you're enjoying it, if that ends you are wasting your time and should get out. It's not like academia is all binding, if after your PhD you hate the guts of physics, you can go get a job in the real world, work for an IB as a quant or something and start making mega bucks to catch up with your friends progression in no time

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, I've only read as far as page 2 here (you guys/gals have written a LOT of LONG posts ), so here's my 2 cents (if I read all 5 pages, I'd give you a whole nickel's worth of advice).

My first impression reading the OP is that there are two issues here:
1) A grass is greener on the other side problem of perception
2) Frustration with current coursework

On the first part, even in business, only the "cream of the crop" really make great money, and they DON'T get to spend a lot of time playing when they are in that caliber of career. If you walk around the Financial District in NYC at night...LATE at night...you'll see the cars lined up around the block waiting to take home those high earning businessmen and women, or take them to their expensive hotel rooms because they don't have time to go home. Sure, they have drivers waiting for them, but they're working so late they wouldn't be safe to drive as tired as they are at the end of the day. During tax season, they don't go home. They stay in hotels next to the office.

Every profession is like that. You can work comfortable or flexible hours for not so great pay, or you can work long, stressful hours for better pay. Once in a while, someone stumbles into some great luck and acquires somewhat of celebrity status.

You're more likely to succeed in a field you enjoy...one you have a passion to get up and do every morning for the rest of your working life. The only way you're going to be a top earner in a field is to succeed in it. If your preference is to work shorter hours and have more time to play, keep in mind you will not earn as much, so won't really have the money to spend on playing. It's a catch-22 of adulthood and the working world.

This gets to part 2...do you love the subjects you're studying? Are you getting frustrated because it's getting hard, or are you getting frustrated because you're losing interest and feeling like you're beating your head against the wall to force yourself to keep going? Since business is mentioned in the OP, have you ever taken a business course, as an elective or just to try it out? What about other courses outside your major? What did you think of them? Were your bored out of your mind? Did you find them fascinating? Could you consider getting up every day and doing a job that required using the knowledge from those courses?

Also, what would fit your personality? Do you really LOVE working with other people? Medicine has been mentioned a few times...would you LOVE working with SICK people who are grumpy and miserable and sometimes rude? Would you LOVE spending half your day filling out insurance paperwork? Could you handle the days when someone dies under your care? Could you handle the days you have to tell someone they have an illness you can't do anything to treat other than alleviate a few symptoms while they wait to die? Could you handle getting phone calls in the middle of the night from the patient who forgot to call for a refill on their prescription before all but one pharmacy has closed and needs you to call it in there? It's not like TV where the doctors waltz in, save a few lives, and then go out and flirt with the nurses, wear expensive suits and drive fancy cars.

Do you like peace and quiet to get your work done, or a chaotic, busy, phones ringing all day workplace? Do you need routine to get things accomplished, or do you perform better when you can have a flexible schedule? Do you need someone else to tell you what to do and set your deadlines to be productive, or do you want to be your own boss and set your own hours and schedule? Do you like working as an individual, or as part of a team? Every path you could take has different options that can fit different personalities. Spend time really evaluating yourself and your interests, and then look at what paths fit with that.

 

[jianxu]

Wasn't it designed to detect mental retardation in children or something?

I learned in psychology that IQ tests is more for measuring the potential of learning in a person. The question is whether you use that potential or not. But my advice is to do whatever you're passionate about and everything will work out. I read awhile back an article concerning whether people feel happy about their lives. The middle classes were actually the happiest with upper class and lower class at almost the same level. Are you really that concerned about having to finish school in a fixed amount of years? You can always take some time off and take a break, do something else? Ya know...school is just an "official" way to learn. But you've been learning outside of school your whole life and shouldn't make it so you HAVE to finish school in x amount of years. I used to think I need to make a lot of money, have to goto med school, etc. Made life no fun at all :P. So now I'm just doing what I'm interested in, physics and computer science. I mean it's still quite a bit of work but I enjoy it much more and don't mind spending so much more time on them ^_^

 

[RasslinGod]

hmm i guess we can all agree on one thing: do what makes you the most happest. if ur happy with a good income and job security, and can do the job, go for it! if your into research and you love it, go for it! issue solved!

 

[vanesch]

Just because I find a subject interesting does not mean I have "fun" being at school. Work is work, no matter how stimulating one may find it. I'd rather spend my holiday on a beach with friends rather than working through rigorous physics 24/7.

Ah ? I didn't. Well, a few days to decompress, yes. But after a few days with friends, I got bored and wanted to read physics stuff again. Usually I took some books with me on a trip, in case I could find some time in between the obliged "having fun on the beach". I changed now, and I can appreciate more of a social life by now, but I still remember that during about 8 years, I only had one thing on my mind: doing physics, because it was such tremendous fun. I knew I was somehow somewhat ruining my future, but it was too much fun to let go. In fact, my dad was a wise guy, and he obliged me to first get an engineering degree before going on a "physics holiday", just to get something to eat when I'd finally grow up
He was right.

 

[thewhills]

^^^

What did you do?
Double Major in Undergrad in Engineering and Physics?

 

[Mihael]

This topic sure has given everybody a lesson...
The key thing is, if only there could have a guaranteed stable-income job for physicist, then everything would be solved.
In fact, we not sure.

 

[mathwonk]

this is one of those almost worthless gossipy threads of little substance. i.e, once it has been said that one should pursue science out if love for the subject there is nothing else to say. DIE, DIE DIE! or go watch entertainment tonight.

 

[Howers]

this is one of those almost worthless gossipy threads of little substance. i.e, once it has been said that one should pursue science out if love for the subject there is nothing else to say. DIE, DIE DIE! or go watch entertainment tonight.

Says the great geometer for whom everything worked out for. Nowadays competition is a lot more fierce than it was back in the day. Would you be here telling us to follow our dreams if you were working at a coffee shop?

I think I've made up my mind. Business is the more logical decision. 10 years of training so that I "might find work"? Sounds like a dumb thing to do, and hence I think I answered my own question. Do I want to be cleaning floors and telling my kids I can't afford that new shirt because I decided to follow my dream, just like that guy on the subway who plays guitar for scrap change. Clearly as dictated by IQ, I won't be the guy making any major progress in the field anyway. And yet you "physicists" impusively claim the score is a poor indicator of ability, despite the fact that science shows the contrary. Similarily, if I miraculously do get a research position I will have to do some eminant professor's work or beg to get grants. Otherwise use my un-related skills for other work, because I proved myself to be capable. So all that instead of grinding my teeth and doing some paper work for a paycheque. You don't go to school if money was not part of the motivation. If you claim otherwise, you are living in denial and may need reflection more than I. I've grown up all my life with b1tchy parents who will start arguing over the smallest things because they were living in debt. Living a life like that is enough to turn my life around, even if it means leaving my beloved physics. Work is work, and I'd rather hate my job than hate my life. I will probably get 88 hours a week to enjoy it anyway!

 

[RasslinGod]

lol...even a fellow physics major, who was going to grad school told me to go into somethign else like medicine, and avoid physics. back then, i was like WTF, but later, i understood.

Lol, howers, are you and i (and i think defenderr too) the only ones worrried about having a more secure future in this topic??

anyways howers, i still highly recommend medicine. You get to work with ppl, and use science!hope things turn out well for ya.

 

[SCV]

Says the great geometer for whom everything worked out for. Nowadays competition is a lot more fierce than it was back in the day. Would you be here telling us to follow our dreams if you were working at a coffee shop?

I have said the same thing as mathwonk and you can't say that everything has worked out for me.

But then again you can just say that I can't know how it is because I haven't made it through, right?

I think I've made up my mind. Business is the more logical decision. 10 years of training so that I "might find work"? Sounds like a dumb thing to do, and hence I think I answered my own question. Do I want to be cleaning floors and telling my kids I can't afford that new shirt because I decided to follow my dream, just like that guy on the subway who plays guitar for scrap change.

Getting a PhD in physics (or math) and not ending up with a position at a research university does not imply that you will have to work at a coffee shop or cleaning floor. There is a huge need for math and physics high school teachers. There is also positions at non-research university you can look at or at community colleges. Those are far better jobs than cleaning floors and you can definitely make a decent living on such a salary.

You don't go to school if money was not part of the motivation. If you claim otherwise, you are living in denial and may need reflection more than I. I've grown up all my life with b1tchy parents who will start arguing over the smallest things because they were living in debt. Living a life like that is enough to turn my life around, even if it means leaving my beloved physics. Work is work, and I'd rather hate my job than hate my life. I will probably get 88 hours a week to enjoy it anyway!

I am not going to school for money. I am going to school because I want to be a mathematician/to teach mathematics. Society requires me to have a couple of degrees to do that. That is why I am at school (besides the fact that its great for learning). Maybe you are not a person who enjoys learning. But that doesn't mean that you should think that no one else does. There are some of us in the world who genuinely enjoy learning and helping others learn.

Don't kid yourself, you don't love physics as much as you think you do.

I have "bitchy" parents as well. My dad has never made more than $25,000 a year (for most of his life he made quite a bit less). There is 8 siblings in the family.

If it was up to him I would be working towards a career in accounting, actuarial science, finance, etc.

He knows I can make enough money as a teacher to raise my family (wife and 1 son so far, living on less than $10,000 a year, note we live in Los Angeles, CA) but he'd much rather I have a job where I was making much more money so I could provide for him.

Now I am not trying to convince you to change your decision. From the comments you have made in this thread I know you do not have the love for physics that I and others have for math and others have for physics (although you may think you do).


I am writing this for others who might also love math or physics as I do. So that they will not get intimidated by your negative attitude towards pursuing the type of career that I am pursuing and you are deciding not to pursue.

 

[alligatorman]

Getting a PhD in physics (or math) and not ending up with a position at a research university does not imply that you will have to work at a coffee shop or cleaning floor. There is a huge need for math and physics high school teachers. There is also positions at non-research university you can look at or at community colleges. Those are far better jobs than cleaning floors and you can definitely make a decent living on such a salary.

I hate when people bring this up. How is having a high school teaching position as a backup supposed to ease the nervousness of going into a science PhD program? If anything, it just makes the whole situation more depressing.

 

[SCV]

I hate when people bring this up. How is having a high school teaching position as a backup supposed to ease the nervousness of going into a science PhD program? If anything, it just makes the whole situation more depressing.

Being a high school teacher is more depressing than mopping floors or working at a coffee shop?

Also my original intention was to become a high school teacher after college. I saw that I liked research so I am going to shoot for a position at a research university. But if I don't make it, being a high school teacher is not going to be a depressing back up.

 

[RasslinGod]

the point is that most ppl don't think being a high school teacher is all that great.

pay tends not to be great, budget cuts lead to salary cuts. he's not directly comparing beign a teacher to mopping floors or working at a cofffee shop. SCV, it's great you want to do this, disregarding money. more power to you! but many others don't feel the same way.

with the economy liek it is, and rising food and energy costs, how much of a "decent living" can these jobs as a high school teacher can one tolerate? how much can a physics post-doc tolerate? how much uncertainty can a post-doc tolerate?

SCV, i understand your argument of doign what you love and havign a "decent living", but you too have to acknowledge our perspective of things.

 

[Fra]

I never hay any intention whatsoever to work as a teacher, but right after my studies, as a matter of conincidences, I had held several private classes in various computers/programming topics and I had at thta time also a temporary/stand-in (half-year) job as a high school teacher in computers and programming.

I found it was an interesting experience. There are much fun with teaching, and meeting a range of students all with different personality is stimulating.

The one part I could imagine beeing depressive in the long run if you are too serious about your subject is that (in my experience) only a fraction of the students at that level(ie high school) are sincerely interested, and the rest of them are just trying to kill the time in class by any measures they can come up with and make fun of your baby topics :) During the short time I had there (until I switched to another job) it was all fun though.

/Fredrik

 

[TMFKAN64]

You don't go to school if money was not part of the motivation. If you claim otherwise, you are living in denial and may need reflection more than I.

This is what psychologists call "projection".

*I* am not going to school for the money. I'm going to school because I enjoy physics more than computer science, despite the fact that I expect to take a substantial pay cut. Life is too short to spend so much of it at a job you dislike.

 

[vanesch]

I think I've made up my mind. Business is the more logical decision. 10 years of training so that I "might find work"? Sounds like a dumb thing to do, and hence I think I answered my own question. Do I want to be cleaning floors and telling my kids I can't afford that new shirt because I decided to follow my dream, just like that guy on the subway who plays guitar for scrap change.

I think with your mindset that indeed, you should look for an education that will increase your chances to make a comfortable amount of money and that you should back away from physics.

However, stop judging people who did otherwise, because that decision is not "logical" or "scientific". If you do something you really love for 10 years, well knowing that you decrease your chances to make money afterwards, but like the "immediate consumption", then there's nothing illogical about it. But visibly for you these 10 years are not "pure joy" and in *that* case indeed you shouldn't continue.

It is amazing that you discover this only now. I have to say that I had several honest professors who told me that rather explicitly: with my engineering degree, I was "stupid" to go into physics for another 8 years if my aim was to improve my future income or my employability. They told me that I was at that point at my "best point to get a real job" and that things would only degrade afterwards, but that if I wanted to have fun in physics, well that was the way to go - and who knows, maybe I'd really find a job as a physicist !

Also, I would like to tune in with others who point out that it is not the choice between being a professor, or mopping the floor. You can find other jobs with a physics degree although of course the path has been sub-optimal if you only look at the outcome (although maybe not if you include the "joy-factor" of doing physics for 10 years).

You don't go to school if money was not part of the motivation. If you claim otherwise, you are living in denial and may need reflection more than I.

You forget the joy-factor ! You don't go on a holiday to make money either, do you ?

 

[cristo]

On that note, I think this thread has come to a natural ending point, since members are just going round in circles!