Is Pursuing Physics and Math a Rational Choice?

[SCV]

Yeah. Ouch, so it might actually be lower.

I'll address this first since its very simple to do so.
IQ tests in general are not a good measure of intelligence. Much less if you only took one. Much less if it was an online test. Like has been said before being a hard worker is more important than having a high IQ.

For all you know your IQ may be much higher and you just took a bad test. It really does not matter.

My only motivation was that I found physics very interesting. I was raised under the premise that hard work will get you a good job, and that is why I enrolled in university. I spent the last 3 years in space with my physics and math equations. Now that I've settled back down on earth, I have come to realize it may all be for nothing - hence the no point. I don't enjoy school, even though I really like physics. I don't think anybody likes learning to hand in problem sets and pass tests. Its an investment to better your future. And with physics, I just don't my future as better. Hence, my whole system crumbles and I am feeling tired of working hard for nothing, no matter how interesting it may be.

There are many things that we find interesting. That does not mean that that is what we really want to do the rest of our lives.
Since I began to study physics I found it interesting. I applied to college as a physics major, thinking that I wanted to be a physicist.

However what I really wanted to do was be a mathematician. I will be starting my PhD program in Mathematics in 2 weeks. I intend to finish and then go on to work in academia. Does that make me dumb?

Hardly. Its what I like to do. I like learning and I like helping others learn. I think being a professor is the perfect job for me. There would be no other job besides one where I was teaching that I would be satisfied with. Maybe I could be making 10 times as much money if I took a different job. But that does not matter. I will do what I enjoy, even if the rest of the world does not think is important or whatever, enough to warrant a "good" salary.
Maybe your premise that hard work will get you a good job was a bit incorrect. Hard work will make you able to get a good job, but it doesn't mean that it WILL get it for you.

Also what a good job is depends on who you ask. For the family I come from a job where I made more than $40,000 a year is a very good job.

If I have to work for $40,000 a year, that will be fine because I will be doing a job I enjoy.

Try to figure out what it is you really enjoy. What are you willing to work hard enough for that you would spend the rest of your life working on that. If its not physics, fine. Better that you get that straight now than half-way into a PhD program.

 

[RasslinGod]

So what do you intend to do? physics and math might be fun but it aint going to give a living. With costs of living and food, and energy goign up, it's just hard to live. The good paying jobs are hard and rare. Liek you said (and i agree), working hard to be a good researcher ain't going to give you a good pay or a stable job. Seems like a whoel lot of work for a whole lot of nothing.

I think medicine is a great choice. You work hard, and you know you'll have your "packed lunch" Plus you don't got to strive to be a good researcher or anything. Lol to me, i think goign to a PhD in physics or math is heck of a lot tougher. The pressure to publish as an academic is tough! Lots more work and u get little benefit.

 

[jhicks]

feynman's iq was not 125, it was much higher. your iq isn't relevant to anything.

I said Feynman's *tested* IQ, and I said that because obviously the IQ score didn't correlate much with how accomplished he actually was. As to the moratorium, I'm inclined to agree that this forum shouldn't be used by people for venting their emotions, or at the very least that it shouldn't be done in any forum besides general.

 

[SCV]

So what do you intend to do? physics and math might be fun but it aint going to give a living. With costs of living and food, and energy goign up, it's just hard to live. The good paying jobs are hard and rare. Liek you said (and i agree), working hard to be a good researcher ain't going to give you a good pay or a stable job. Seems like a whoel lot of work for a whole lot of nothing.

I think medicine is a great choice. You work hard, and you know you'll have your "packed lunch" Plus you don't got to strive to be a good researcher or anything. Lol to me, i think goign to a PhD in physics or math is heck of a lot tougher. The pressure to publish as an academic is tough! Lots more work and u get little benefit.

Mathwonk-
I would like to know if you felt a "pressure to publish" or if you did so because you wanted to present your results.
--------------------------
I would think that for someone who enjoys researching, he might nor feel such a pressure as someone who did not like to research.

For me doing a math PhD is a heck a lot easier than going into any other field. This is because I enjoy math and cannot imagine working in another field.

Of course not all people, have the same interest. So such a life is not for everyone.

Also for some, being paid to research math is a huge benefit. The satisfaction one gets from such a job can be a far greater benefit than the money or other benefits that being a doctor/lawyer/etc. give.

Again it comes down to what Howers enjoys. No matter what he does, he will have to work hard. If he does something he will enjoy, the hard work will be worth it.

 

[chislam]

The pressure to publish as an academic is tough! Lots more work and u get little benefit.

Little benefit?

Apparently, you don't quite understand the feeling that physicists / mathematicians have when they accomplish something. Not everything in this world is about the money.

 

[thewhills]

I seem to find the problem in Math and Science, there is always more to learn. You enter college is little preparation especially in the US and find you a thrown into a lot of work in order to "catch up" Then you constantly build on what you learn.You not only need to grasp new concepts,but remember the old.I find the people who enter physics or math program and just end up in business dumb,
I think Physics and Math major are "abused". Even with 8 year of education, You are somehow unworthy of doctor,businessman, or lawyer pay even though they are on par in "prestige"
Basically if you enter Physics or Math program for the RIGHT reason, Because you love your subject, Then you are a genius.

 

[Howers]

Little benefit?

Apparently, you don't quite understand the feeling that physicists / mathematicians have when they accomplish something. Not everything in this world is about the money.

Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...


I guess what this thread comes down to is, is mathematical physics worth it? Am I struggling becuase I lack aptitude? And can I make a living.

 

[torquerotates]

It is completely logical. Think about it. Why do people want to have money in the first place? So they can get the things they desire. Money is just a tool to find happiness. There are other tools. For someone that really loves physics, academia may be their tool. The real question is:" how much do you love physics/math?" Its an important question because if you have diverse interests such as, physics, math, BMWs, hot women, parties etc, you'll be unable to satisfy them all. If you go for physics/math, you probably won't have the money get a BMW nor the time to chase hot women and vice versa. So now you can see that the most logical decision is to go with what you think will give you the most happiness and see where that takes you. Important Qualification: this is assuming that physicists and mathematicians make enough to feed themselves; got to satisfy the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

[thewhills]

I said Feynman's *tested* IQ, and I said that because obviously the IQ score didn't correlate much with how accomplished he actually was. As to the moratorium, I'm inclined to agree that this forum shouldn't be used by people for venting their emotions, or at the very least that it shouldn't be done in any forum besides general.

I have an IQ on 138, that doesn't mean I have the creativity or work ethic Feynman had.
IQ doesn't test subject like Math or Physics...Einstein didn't pass the entrance examination to ETH Zurich,...But he revolutionized the world.

 

[Howers]

It is completely logical. Think about it. Why do people want to have money in the first place? So they can get the things they desire. Money is just a tool to find happiness. There are other tools. For someone that really loves physics, academia may be their tool. The real question is:" how much do you love physics/math?" Its an important question because if you have diverse interests such as, physics, math, BMWs, hot women, parties etc, you'll be unable to satisfy them all. If you go for physics/math, you probably won't have the money get a BMW nor the time to chase hot women and vice versa. So now you can see that the most logical decision is to go with what you think will give you the most happiness and see where that takes you. Important Qualification: this is assuming that physicists and mathematicians make enough to feed themselves; got to satisfy the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

You have me stumpted with that hot women one...

:!)

 

[torquerotates]

If that is more important to you than the hard sciences, then go for business, law, anything. Life isn't perfect, so choose wisely.

 

[thewhills]

troque is right, You spend 8+ hours at work, That is a least 1/2 the time you are awake. You would you rather be happy or miserable for 40 year that you will work?
It isn't like you will in cardboard box either,You can probably own that BMW if you want.

I like to think, How do YOU want to change the world?
Follow that dream.

 

[SCV]

Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...

Why do you care how society will value your work?
The feeling that having an enjoyable job causes last much more than 5 minutes. Looking forward to a job you enjoy makes your day. While looking forward to a job you dread, no matter how well paying, will make your day miserable.

I guess what this thread comes down to is, is mathematical physics worth it? Am I struggling becuase I lack aptitude? And can I make a living.

Again it comes down to finding out what you truly enjoy.

Mathematical physics CAN be worth it. But only for some people. It is not for everyone.
I would say you are struggling because you are not sure you enjoy mathematical physics enough to dedicate your life to to it. You can definitely make a living being a mathematical physics. Sure you won't live in luxury, but if you care about that then mathematical physics is not for you.

 

[torquerotates]

Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...

as an addendum to the above, studies have shown that the happiness gained by buying a new product is ephemeral. For example, you feel great getting that new laptop, but in a week, you get bored. Look up hedonic treadmill.

 

[Howers]

Again it comes down to finding out what you truly enjoy.

Mathematical physics CAN be worth it. But only for some people. It is not for everyone.
I would say you are struggling because you are not sure you enjoy mathematical physics enough to dedicate your life to to it. You can definitely make a living being a mathematical physics. Sure you won't live in luxury, but if you care about that then mathematical physics is not for you.

I do enjoy it, and I would dedicate my life to it. But wealth cannot be over looked. I don't want a BMW and a 4 million villa, but I want to be able to afford nutritious food and support a family. I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

Most people go into medicine because they want to make a difference to individuals inflicted with illness. Medical school is roughly the same amount of schooling and effort as physics. The difference is they have stable careers and are very well compensated.

I'm not going to preach about how money isn't anything, because it is. I want to be able to pay off my loans and afford textbooks. I don't want a 12 hour job like my parents where I stay in debt until I die. Whereas Mr.Hotshot with a Commerce degree is surfing the web at work and looking for a resort to visit for his monthly break.

 

[RasslinGod]

chislam, i do understand that feeling, that's why I am a physics student, but that feeling isn't going to give me a comfortable life.i think i would rather have a life wher ei didn't have to worry bout money or job security..thats just me. I udnerstand Hower's feelign that he doesn't want all the BMW's and the houses. Its just you want to have a comfortable life where money isn't an issue. It doesn't mean you're some sort of magalomaniac. If one loves the enjoyment of physics/math and is fine with their situation, more power to em!

 

[TMFKAN64]

If you think about grad school and all you can see is six years of hell, you are in the wrong ****ing field.

Also, I think a major advantage of math and science is that there is always something else, further in the distance.

 

[Fra]

I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

This does sound to me like you are not terribly passionate about natural science so perhaps your concerns are valid. I surely can not speak for anyone else, but I think that at least for many professional researchers have a passion and consider what they do as more than a work - it is a passion - and I can only figure that without deep comittment/motivation the competition for positions will be even harder.

Maybe a compromise is the engineering route (applied physics or math) is more in line for you? As far as I know most engineering programs (as opposed to science programs) are tuned in for more industrial or commercial fields, and usually developed in communication with needs on the market, rather than pure/basic fundamental research mostly within academica. Maybe throw in some courses on business administration too and I think you'll be pretty attractive.

/Fredrik

 

[tgt]

Whatever you do, remember that life is ultimately about balance.

 

[thewhills]

I think he is just frustrated.
Basically I think TC see his friends in business sleeping and partying and realizing they will make a lot more $$$ then him. He loves science but doesn't think things like pay are fair for the work he put in.

 

[vanesch]

My only motivation was that I found physics very interesting. I was raised under the premise that hard work will get you a good job, and that is why I enrolled in university. I spent the last 3 years in space with my physics and math equations. Now that I've settled back down on earth, I have come to realize it may all be for nothing - hence the no point.

Your story is self-contradictory. Visibly (as it should be) you did physics because 1) you found it interesting, and 2) it got you "in space" for 3 years. So this was like a 3-year holiday for you. You enjoyed immense intellectual fun while others were thinking of making a living. You went on a "fun" course while others were trying to get the best assets for money and career. If you had an accident right now and died, you would have been the one who had most fun. And then you say that you did physics because "hard work will get you a good job" and that all that was "for nothing". No, it wasn't. You did fun things while others were doing hard stuff to prepare their professional life. You were on a holiday. By going to grad school, and doing a PhD, you can even prolong your "holiday" in fun physics land. You can still enjoy a few more years of pure joy pursuing abstract intellectual challenges while others will have to be confronted with day-to-day reality. Up to you whether you want to have those few extra holiday years. Of course, at the end will come pay day. Then the others will start enjoying the benefits of their investments, while you will have come in from a 10-year long holiday in physics-fun land. But you had fun for 10 years, they didn't. It's the ethernal economic question: immediate consumption and fun or investment in the future. But there might even a very unfair way out: you could get away with having 10 years of physics fun and STILL obtain a reasonably fun job afterwards. Of course, chances are not high, but IF you succeed, you will have a life-time fun with physics. That's maybe worth the gamble, no ?

I don't enjoy school, even though I really like physics. I don't think anybody likes learning to hand in problem sets and pass tests.

? that was the most fun activity I had in my life! If you don't like working out problem sets, what the hell are you doing then ? Hell, I still do some problems from books myself when I get some time, just for fun.

Its an investment to better your future.

Uh ! Not at all. Not more than going on a trip to the Bahama's is an investment in your future: it is a way to enjoy life !

That said, you MIGHT eventually turn your physics education in a kind of asset. But in the first place, it is consumption on the spot of fun time.

(ok, I should maybe be a little bit less sarcastic... but there is some truth in what I say here...)

 

[mal4mac]

Right. Be reminded that we live in the real world and have to pay bills.

I was trying to get the poster to live in the real world! The only real world is the present. If you spend all your time worrying about the future then you spend all your time worrying. If you are doing physics at University because of your passion for it then you are incredibly lucky! Mainly because you are pursuing your passion, but also because you are pursuing a skill that is in (reasonable) demand and is viewed as eminently transferable. The neatest example of that is financial wizards being described as "quants", this is a direct recognition of the high regard the financial market holds for physics graduates. Also, look at the high demand for physics teachers. My personal path took me into programming/IT work and I've known many other physics graduates who have been snapped up for such posts. I remember one CS graduate complaining to me about science students always getting hired instead of him! So I encourage physics students not to worry about the future because there *is*, without doubt, a good future. Just get on with enjoying your physics & riding out the tough patches. (And I've paid my bills in the real world for thirty years :-)

 

[mal4mac]

I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

You seem to be basing your life on extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic motivation. A fundamental error. This might help:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/159420148X/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[mal4mac]

... you could get away with having 10 years of physics fun and STILL obtain a reasonably fun job afterwards. Of course, chances are not high, but IF you succeed, you will have a life-time fun with physics. That's maybe worth the gamble, no ?

Lots of good positive advice until this point vanesch! Why do you think all the fun jobs are only in physics research? Do you think all those teachers, programmers, finance types are suffering jobs that are no fun. As in many walks of life, many are, but (also) many are not! So if you end up having to leave physics-fun-land just plan carefully, and (if necessary) move around until you find another fun land.

 

[George Jones]

If you are doing physics at University because of your passion for it then you are incredibly lucky!

Right!

My advice:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1266092#post1266092.

 

[mathwonk]

yes i let pressure to publish, and i still feel it now. but that pressure helps one discipline oneself to put his results out there for others to critique and benefit from, and not just sit back and say well i did that.

again as said before, since there is so much pressure to perform, it is essential that one is engaged in an activity some part of which, usually the research itself, is enjoyable.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

You have me stumpted with that hot women one...

:!)

we need more women in physics and maths...

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

yes i let pressure to publish, and i still feel it now. but that pressure helps one discipline oneself to put his results out there for others to critique and benefit from, and not just sit back and say well i did that.

again as said before, since there is so much pressure to perform, it is essential that one is engaged in an activity some part of which, usually the research itself, is enjoyable.

another question is how much coffee this research adventrue of yours requires you to drain down? (-:

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

You seem to be basing your life on extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic motivation. A fundamental error. This might help:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/159420148X/?tag=pfamazon01-20

How much money do you get from this commercial?

 

[Andy Resnick]

<snip>
I don't want loads of money. I want a stable job for sacrificing the best years of my life for 10 years of unpaid, over time labour. This isn't knitting class, this is mathematical physics I'm doing here. Yes, after 10 years of school I expect a picnic. Or at the very least a packed lunch.

<snip>

That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life. That's the whole point of making a career choice to do what you like, not to expect some sort of payoff or reward. Becasue there isn't any- not for MDs, either, FWIW.

If you really want society to take care of you as a reward for doing work that society deems beneficial, then you should pick a different career- politics, for example. Finance. Law- and you can make a relatively painless swtich to patent law with a degree in science.