Originally posted by Tiberius
The dual proton thingy is a bit more tricky. However, I believe it is much to do about nothing.
For starters, and going back to where this discussion begins on page 5 - the 5th post from the top - the argument that follows is nothing but a complete misunderstanding of the subject. The EPR paradox is a big deal. The explanation given by Tiberius completely ignores the point of the paradox. Bell’s inequality theorem shows that the notion of hidden variables is mathematically inconsistent. If we assume that unique values exist for the spin states [polarization] of these photons [or electron-positron pairs], and then determine the expectation value for the particles over the defined interval, we find that Bell’s inequality produces a mathematical inconsistency. In other words, we arrive at an answer that effectively says that 1 = 2. This is not a philosophical conclusion. This is a mathematical contradiction. This is how any beginning algebra student knows they have made a mistake. In this case, the mistake made is in the assumption that hidden variables exist.
We assume condition A [hidden variables exist]. We apply the equations of QM [calculate the expectation values]. We arrive at a contradiction. [1 = 2]
This is called false! Conclusion: Hidden variables do not exist.
I have also seen proofs [mathematical not philosophical] that uses the Cartographers Proof [that one can make a map using three colors I think…it has been a long time since I have seen this] to show that no hidden variables can exist. Again, this is not Capra making arm waving arguments. This is mathematics.
Finally, conservation laws require that either spooky action at a distance happens, or you violate the foundations of physics itself. Since we know the foundations of physics are well tested, we are forced to concede to a process that defies explanation but indeed somehow happens. Philosophically, this should be no more difficult to accept than even Special Relativity [not to mention GR] was 50 years ago...or now for that matter. After all, space-time is nothing but fairy dust. Prove me wrong.
The significance of this cannot be overstated:
Equations are not explanations.
Equations simply allow us to calculate the correct results.
Since we do get the right results, the equations must be correct.
However, equations that cannot be understood are called MAGIC.
Much of what I have read in this thread objects not to new age mysticism, dope smoking gurus, or the great cosmic consciousness, many of the objections are really denials of well established concepts in physics.
We have no known process by which this information can be mediated. Clearly we fail to see the complete picture. That’s what all of the commotion has been about for the last 70 years. If this could so easily be dismissed, it would have been long ago.
Edit: I should add that any arguments for propagation delay not only fail mathematically, but by now with today's technology, they surely fail experimentally. The state of two entangled particles and the intervening "communication" must happen at least at speeds much greater than C; if not instantaneously as is assumed. I would think that Heisenberg might allow a small window of Δ t, but not enough to account for the situation where the wave function collapses while the particles are separated by vast distances.
