Is Spacetime Always Flat in Regions Without Mass?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of spacetime curvature in regions devoid of mass, exploring whether spacetime is always flat in such areas and the implications of mass on curvature. Participants examine theoretical frameworks, including general relativity, and consider the role of gravitational waves and vacuum solutions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether spacetime curvature is always flat in regions without mass, suggesting that curvature can exist even in "outer space."
  • Others argue that mass can influence spacetime curvature from a distance, similar to how electric charges can create fields far from their location.
  • There is a discussion about the distinction between mass and gravity, with some noting that in general relativity, the source of gravity is represented by the stress-energy tensor rather than mass alone.
  • Gravitational waves are presented as a counterexample to the idea that spacetime curvature requires mass, as they propagate independently of their source.
  • Some participants highlight that there are vacuum solutions to Einstein's equations that demonstrate curved spacetime without the presence of matter, referencing examples like the Schwarzschild solution.
  • Questions arise regarding the definition of "mass" and what constitutes matter in the context of spacetime curvature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether spacetime can be curved in the absence of mass, with some asserting that it can and others questioning this notion. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that certain solutions in general relativity may not apply to our universe, and there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of gravitational waves and the nature of vacuum solutions.

tut_einstein
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1) Is it always a given that the spacetime curvature will be flat in a region in which there is no mass?
2) Therefore is the curvature directly dependent on the mass in a particular region?
3) Also, what exactly is included in the term "mass"?
4) If there are no matter fields to curve space time, would there be no concept of a gravitational force?

Thanks.
 
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1) No. In "outer space" (say surrounding the earth) spacetime is curved, even though there is no matter there.
2) No. Another way to think about it is just as a charge can produce an electric field far from where it is, a mass can affect spacetime curvature far from it.
3) Matter is distinguished from gravity by having localizable energy and momentum. In general, it has other properties in addition to energy and momentum with equations relating those properties, and also an equation relating those properties to its energy and momentum.
4) General relativity does have solutions in which spacetime is curved even without matter. They don't apply to our universe, but they reflect the properties of a theory that does describe our universe with high accuracy.
 
1) No, gravitational waves are a counterexample. They are "ripples" in the space-time curvature that propagate through space-time, once started they become independent of what generated them, like light rays become independent of the acclerating charges that generated them.

2) The curvature in a given region has a part that depends on that region , and another part that does not. If you consider the case of the Earth orbiting the sun, the space-time by the Earth is curved by the sun, even though the sun is distant.

3) Mass may be the source of gravity in Newtonian theory, but in GR, the source of gravity is the stress-energy tensor. Mass is a scalar, a single number, the stress-energy tensor is a 4x4 matrix. So it's not as simple as it was in Newtonian theory.

4) I'm not too sure how to answer that one, maybe someone else will give it a shot.
 
atyy said:
1) No. In "outer space" (say surrounding the earth) spacetime is curved, even though there is no matter there.
2) No. Another way to think about it is just as a charge can produce an electric field far from where it is, a mass can affect spacetime curvature far from it.
3) Matter is distinguished from gravity by having localizable energy and momentum. In general, it has other properties in addition to energy and momentum with equations relating those properties, and also an equation relating those properties to its energy and momentum.
4) General relativity does have solutions in which spacetime is curved even without matter. They don't apply to our universe, but they reflect the properties of a theory that does describe our universe with high accuracy.

I thought space-time was curved only by matter and energy? In a vacuum space, would space-time be curved then?
 
I thought space-time was curved only by matter and energy? In a vacuum space, would space-time be curved then?
No, honest! That's what #2 said, don't you believe him? :smile:

There are many, many vacuum solutions of Einstein's equations that are 'curved' despite containing no matter (stress-energy). In some cases this is because the matter has been idealized as a singularity. An example of this is the Schwarzschild solution that describes black holes, which is a vacuum solution. Other vacuum solutions can be understood by supposing that the field was created by a source that has been moved off to infinity. Radiation solutions are like this - you can have a plane wave with no apparent source. Just as you can have an electromagnetic wave with no apparent source.
 

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