Is Speed Determined by the Shape of a Positive Curved Time vs Distance Graph?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the shape of a positive curved time vs distance graph and the concept of speed. Participants explore whether speed can be defined for such a graph, particularly when the slope varies across different points, and delve into the implications of curvature on acceleration and instantaneous speed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a positive curved time vs distance graph does not yield a single speed value, but rather allows for average speed calculations between points or instantaneous speed calculations using calculus.
  • Others argue that the slope of the graph indicates instantaneous speed, and that if the graph is curved, it suggests the presence of acceleration.
  • A few participants mention that the accuracy of speed measurements may be affected by measurement errors and the need for data smoothing techniques.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the slope being upward, with some stating that it indicates positive speed, while others clarify that it does not necessarily imply increasing acceleration.
  • Some participants note that distinguishing between increasing and decreasing acceleration requires understanding the second derivative of the graph's curvature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the graph's curvature and the definitions of speed and acceleration. There is no consensus on how to interpret the relationship between the graph's shape and the concepts discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the discussion, particularly regarding the mathematical concepts involved, such as derivatives and curvature. The lack of a visual representation of the graph is noted as a limitation in clarifying the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying physics, mathematics, or engineering, particularly in relation to graph interpretation, calculus, and the concepts of speed and acceleration.

TheOGBacon
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If there was a positive curved time vs distance graph going upwards and to the right, would there be a speed for this graph even if all the points do not have a slope in common?
 
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TheOGBacon said:
If there was a positive curved time vs distance graph going upwards and to the right, would there be a speed for this graph even if all the points do not have a slope in common?
You could apply a best-fit algorithm to get a reasonable average speed function, assuming that the points are now wildly off of a trendline
 
TheOGBacon said:
If there was a positive curved time vs distance graph going upwards and to the right, would there be a speed for this graph even if all the points do not have a slope in common?

There would not be a single number that defines the speed the whole graph. One could calculate an average speed between two given points in time. One could also compute a speed "at" a particular instant of time. Calculating speed at an instant in time gets into the concepts of Calculus. What math have you studied?
 
TheOGBacon said:
If there was a positive curved time vs distance graph going upwards and to the right, would there be a speed for this graph even if all the points do not have a slope in common?
You will never be able to find the most accurate speed, since I am assuming the slope is always changing.

You can however use Calculus and the definition of the derivative to find the slopes and averages across increasingly small distances and eventually instantaneously.
 
TheOGBacon said:
If there was a positive curved time vs distance graph going upwards and to the right, would there be a speed for this graph even if all the points do not have a slope in common?
If a distance / time graph has a curve to it then that means there is acceleration. The slope of the graph at any point is the instantaneous speed. Your points are presumably, measured values and it's likely that the scatter is due to either simple measurement errors of some variable in the dirving force / frictions forces.
What you do with the data will depend on what you want out of it. As @Stephen Tashi says, you can find the average speed from total distance / total time but you can clean up the data by drawing (by eye) as smooth a curve as possible that passes through or between the points as near as possible. (Like driving a fast car through a set of traffic cones which haven't be placed very accurately - you can't steer to hit them all but you do your best). There are maths procedures that will give you a better curve of best fit but by-eye can be pretty good. If you draw a tangent to the curve at any point then the instantaneous speed will be given by the slope at that point. Measuring the speed along the journey in that way will tell you how the acceleration changes. IF the slope is always 'upwards, the acceleration is increasing over the journey.
 
sophiecentaur said:
IF the slope is always 'upwards, the acceleration is increasing over the journey.
If the slope of what is upwards?
If the slope of the distance/time graph is upwards, all that tells you is that the speed is positive.
If the slope of the speed/time graph is upwards, all that tells you is that the [tangential] acceleration is positive.
If the slope of the acceleration/time graph is upwards, that tells you that acceleration is increasing.
 
jbriggs444 said:
If the slope of what is upwards?
If the slope of the distance/time graph is upwards, all that tells you is that the speed is positive.
If the slope of the speed/time graph is upwards, all that tells you is that the [tangential] acceleration is positive.
If the slope of the acceleration/time graph is upwards, that tells you that acceleration is increasing.
The OP describes an upwards curve, as I read it. If it is curved then there is acceleration. Of course, a picture of the graph with properly labelled axes would have helped.
 
sophiecentaur said:
The OP describes an upwards curve, as I read it. If it is curved then there is acceleration. Of course, a picture of the graph with properly labelled axes would have helped.
Fair enough. Though an upward curve to the distance/time graph indicates positive acceleration, not increasing acceleration.
 
jbriggs444 said:
Fair enough. Though an upward curve to the distance/time graph indicates positive acceleration, not increasing acceleration.
That would depend upon the derivative of the curvature of that graph. Second year and not first year work, I think. :smile:
 
  • #10
sophiecentaur said:
That would depend upon the derivative of the curvature of that graph.
For any reasonable definition of curvature I can come up with, it [upward curvature] would be associated with increasing speed and positive acceleration, not increasing acceleration.
 
  • #11
I reckon I could draw two s/ t graphs which 'curve upwards', one with increasing and one with decreasing acceleration and you would not be able to eyeball which was which - unless you could see them side by side. We are talking about a second derivative and the brain is no too good with that.
 
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