Is String Theory A Waste Of Time?

  • #51
Subsequent observations suggested that the quasar pair was not lensed!
Yes, but until further data debunks the paper I mentioned there is no reason to think that it is not a credible observation.

If it is so simple, why is the derivation of "BH" entropy claimed to be one of main successes of ST, e.g. in the Elegant Universe?
I'm not sure. Maybe it's because string theory predicts a phenomena that is derived from an established theory which boarders with quantum gravity.

As said if D=/=26 either you obtain an inconsistent theory or violating experimental data one, e.g. special relativity.
That's seems like a weird statement to me. It's like saying that QFT is wrong because Feynman's invariant perturbation formulation is only adapting it to special relativity.

If ST was only a theory of quantum gravity as you claim, then would be a nonsense the ST popular claim of derivation of Einstein field equations and the string criticism to LQG of that still cannot derive them.
I would like to see some references to the contrary.



selfAdjoint said:
Whether it would be good after 't Hooft depends on what you want. P&S is oriented to giving you the capability of doing relevant calculations: N point functions, crossing symmetries, cross sections, lifetimes, et al. It's a real working physics text.
I see. Thank you for the information. I think that I will purchase it sometime in the near future.


selfAdjoint said:
A friend told me the way to do a physics text was (a) Read through for meaning, and don't worry about derivations or excercises), then (b) read again doing the derivations if possible and getting someone to help you if you run into trouble, and finally (c) do the excercises with the same stipulations as (b).
It sounds like good advice. I too will try to use that method.
 
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  • #52
Juan R. said:
But when you read comments on the blog you discover that almost all is either completely wrong or exagerated. It is impressive like Sean talk about things that he does not know (increasing the miths about string theory between laymen).
So Sean Carroll is the latest addition to your wax museum of scientists who don't know what they are talking about? Absurd, but still hilarious.
 
  • #53
Berislav said:
Yes, but until further data debunks the paper I mentioned there is no reason to think that it is not a credible observation.

I agree. Simply i said that the asumption of that that effect was predicted from string theory is wrong, because from string theory one cannot predcit anything (see also Lubos Motls comments on his blog below or quote in my non-technical article www.canonicalscience.com/stringcriticism.pdf[/URL] in its four page).

[QUOTE=Berislav]
I'm not sure. Maybe it's because string theory predicts a phenomena that is derived from an established theory which boarders with quantum gravity.[/QUOTE]

No, string theory does not predict that result, string theory [B]is adapted to[/B] that previously known result. Moreover, as already said one only obtain a numerical coincidence with entropy of GR BH, because, string theory does not work with GR BH, unlike LQG.

[QUOTE=Juan R.]
As said if D=/=26 either you obtain an inconsistent theory or violating experimental data one, e.g. special relativity.
[QUOTE=Berislav]
That's seems like a weird statement to me. It's like saying that QFT is wrong because Feynman's invariant perturbation formulation is only adapting it to special relativity.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

No! You are not fixing the point.

If you develop a QFT violating SR, then you are developing a wrong theory, because violates experimental data known. Then one formulates a QFT consistent with SR postulates and the bundle is called relativistic QFT. OK?

Now turn to ST. You can mathematically develop bosonic ST for D=4, D= 9, D=236945, etc. The point is that for D < 26 you obtain tachionic behavior and this is incompatible with SR (you obtain imaginary masses states). Then you force your bosonic theory to D=26. Therefore, D=26 is not an elegant derivation from string theory as is claimed in talks or oriented laymen books. Simply the result D=26 is an adaptation of ST to experimental data known. That is, it is a test of ST.

This is an important point, because the history of ST is the history of succesive experimental failure. Veneziano formula was invalidated experimentally, and abandoned by QCD.

Then people suggested a generalization to gravity (string theory was not only a theory of strong force they claimed). Bosonic string theory in 4D is experimentally inconsistent and then one introduces 26D, but our world is 4D (that is another violation of experimental data) and one introduces Kaluza-Klein (that in original unification scheme predicted "Dicke" scalar field not experimentally found) and one obtain again inconsistency with experimental data and then one add supersimmetry (newer experimentally found where "predicted" and then the scale of energy increased by hand several times for consistency) and posibility for fermion families (string theory was not only a theory of strong force more gravity they claimed)) and again one obtain an experimentally inconsistent theory (nobody has shown breaking of supersimmetry to low energies [b]required[/b] by experimental data) and after of more than 30 years...

Finally one obtains a perturbative series that nobody has shown to be convergent for a theory (of everything) in a classical flat metric with perturbation, but again this is experimentally incorrect, since GR claims that causality is defined on curved g metric not on a flat n metric and then people searchs for M-theory that nobody knows that is but all people agrees that is not a theory of strings.

Note: In the past, string theorists claimed that one would not take GR seriously and one would define causality on the flat metric with graviton like a perturbative addition. Still yesterday James Graber has claimed in Cosmic variance (see above link) that

[QUOTE=James Graber]
That is, despite the observational confirmations of General Relativity predictions and the success of Inflationary ideas, it still appears that we live in a flat universe. The fact that quantum mechanics is so hard to formulate in curved spacetime may be telling us that we live in a universe that is necesarily exactly flat, not just approximately flat, or accidentally flat. Perhaps the universe is not background independent, but rather requires a flat background.[/QUOTE]

Which is obviously a complete nonsense and by this reason people is searching a M-theory. That is string theory is the history of succesive failure, and string theorists simply are modifing their ideas to ideas expreseed previously by others.

Still Hilbert-Fock quantization of string is incompatible with experimental data on quark gluon plasma and now people is using doubled quantization and tilde operators in a new version of Dp-brane theory, but that new quantization methods were not originated on string theory they were in plasma physics, etc.

And recent noncritical approach in Gelfand triplets is also wrong and violates basic experimental stuff known in other fields, etc.

and recent unitary theorems (including unitarity in BH evaporation) are wrong with well-known material in chemical physics (see Nobel lecture that i cited above). a simple electron transfer reaction already violates superstring theory and recent Schwartz (2002) claims.

Etc, etc, etc.

Since that string theory is a waste of time, there is a joke that said that recent failure of string theory in cosmology ("complete failure" according to cosmologist Krauss who is writting a book about the joke called string theory) implies that string theory was not a theory of everything it was really a theory of more than everything.


[QUOTE=Berislav]
I would like to see some references to the contrary.[/QUOTE]

I do not understand. Contrary to what?
 
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  • #54
Chronos said:
So Sean Carroll is the latest addition to your wax museum of scientists who don't know what they are talking about? Absurd, but still hilarious.

Nice comments Chronos! Let me quote to Lubos Motl (from link above).

Lubos Motl said:
Also, another problem with Sean's text is that he paints string theory as we knew it 20 years ago or so.

And

Lubos Motl said:
Today, string theory is not just a theory of strings.

And, also,

Lubos Motl said:
Today, "string theory" is a kind of misnomer.

It is also interesting the real status of string theory like a theory of everything where one is deriving all, including cosmic strings.

Lubos Motl said:
But in order to achieve the goal fully, it should also be used to derive the right spectrum of particles with the right parameters either from no input or from a smaller set of assumptions than required by the previous theories.

Today, "string theory" cannot predict anything of this world, it is not a theory, it is not based in strings, and Sean would remain silent...
 
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  • #55
ST has a unique approach that satisfies the enigmas of bonds

Juan R. said:
Other theories have well defined laws, postulates, etc. For example LQG has well defined laws and experimental predictions.

In string theory there is no laws or postulates, just a mathematical gulash that is adapted each time that an inconsistency or sound error is found in the formalism. In fact, there is no real theory. String theory is a just program for searching a theory already called string theory. In M-theory is still poor. Nobody know that M-theory is, but it is claimed that is elegant :bugeye:

What arrogance!
In general, I agree with your statement; however:

From ST, that is, the logic of the geometry of the strings' formation and coalescence, Pauling, shortly before his death, indicated that he agreed that one might predict the mechanics of bonding . . . as applicable to subatomic bonds, atomic bonds (5 chemical bonds), including the Bjerknes hydrodynamic “action-at-a-distance” effect, van der Waals forces, and the Casimir force.
 
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  • #56
brunardot said:
In general, I agree with your statement; however:

From ST, that is, the logic of the geometry of the strings' formation and coalescence, Pauling, shortly before his death, indicated that he agreed that one might predict the mechanics of bonding . . . as applicable to subatomic bonds, atomic bonds (5 chemical bonds), including the Bjerknes hydrodynamic “action-at-a-distance” effect, van der Waals forces, and the Casimir force.

?

A related question for you:

What is a bond?
 
  • #57
Some people claim in Cosmic variance for experimental observation of decreasing of Newtonian force at short scales. If true this would be the final knock to string theory before the well-known claim of that string theory will be finished at HLC.

String and M-theories "predicts" strong effective gravitational interaction to shorter distances.

Somewhat like the rule 1/r^(2+d) for d extra dimensions (some recent RS brane model introduces Yukawa like exponential correction from extra 5th dimension).

I will say next is not rigorous but intuitive.

We can observe that smooth behavior is obtained formally with

d < 0 for r –> 0 on 1/r^(2+d) for d "extra" dimensions.

It is interesting the chossing d = -2 for short scales (dimensionality in string M theory is fixed to 10-11D but it is not in other advanced approaches) because:

i) It is compatible with recent advances in triangulations quantum gravity (hep-th/0505154). Where dimensionality of spacetime is reduced not increased to short scales.

That is, Calabi-Yau manifolds conjeture vanishes and all formalism of string theory turns wrong. Moreover spacetime become fractal to shorter scales and therefore the use of differentiable manifolds (CY, G2) on string, brane, and M theory again is an oudated (wrong) method.
Again i was correct and string M theorists (of course smart as they are :-) completely wrong.

As explained in April www.canonicalscience.com/stringcriticism.pdf[/URL]

I and others are working in nondifferentiable manifolds time ago, but string theorists (irrelevant and ignorant as they are) still believe that one can model universe using a CY (10D string theory) or recent M2 manifolds (in 11D M-theory).

Above June preprint exposes ideas similar to derived from canonical science: fractality and non-diferentiability.

ii) d -2 for r –> 0 imply formally elimination of divergencies on (1/r^2) force strengh since (1/r^2) —-> (1/r^0) and this would permit to us the developing of a non-divergent full quantum gravity.
 
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  • #58
Simply i said that the asumption of that that effect was predicted from string theory is wrong, because from string theory one cannot predcit anything (see also Lubos Motls comments on his blog below or quote in my non-technical article
I disagree. String theory predicts the existence of cosmic strings. The newly discovered phenomena can be interpreted as a cosmic string and to my knowledge not as anything else, for the time being, at least.

No, string theory does not predict that result, string theory is adapted to that previously known result.
I will respond to this issue later. Since I can't find any references at this time.

Now turn to ST. You can mathematically develop bosonic ST for D=4, D= 9, D=236945, etc. The point is that for D < 26 you obtain tachionic behavior and this is incompatible with SR (you obtain imaginary masses states).
Bosonic string theory is developed by at first leaving the number of dimensions unknown. One then (as I said before) because of unphysical (as you say, tachionic) residual terms in the commutation relation of the Lorentz boost and angular momentum operator imposes the 26 dimensionality. The residual terms are then zero. I don't see anything wrong with this. Maybe it isn't "elegant", but then again that is a subjective concept.

and then one add supersimmetry (newer experimentally found where "predicted" and then the scale of energy increased by hand several times for consistency) and posibility for fermion families (string theory was not only a theory of strong force more gravity they claimed)) and again one obtain an experimentally inconsistent theory (nobody has shown breaking of supersimmetry to low energies required by experimental data) and after of more than 30 years...
Aha. So you dislike supesymmetry as well as string theory.

Still Hilbert-Fock quantization of string is incompatible with experimental data on quark gluon plasma and now people is using doubled quantization and tilde operators in a new version of Dp-brane theory, but that new quantization methods were not originated on string theory they were in plasma physics, etc.

And recent noncritical approach in Gelfand triplets is also wrong and violates basic experimental stuff known in other fields, etc.
I don't know about those approaches. I do know however about the BRST formalism, which is a supersymmetry! And to my knowledge works quite well.

I do not understand. Contrary to what?
Contrary to "the ST popular claim of derivation of Einstein field equations". That is, that supersymmetry coupled with gravity isn't the low energy limit of superstring theory.

Some people claim in Cosmic variance for experimental observation of decreasing of Newtonian force at short scales.
This sounds like a very important discovery! I thought that we couldn't reach the necessary energy to observe such radical changes in the laws of spacetime. Some references, please!

Juan R. said:
brunardot said:
In general, I agree with your statement; however:

From ST, that is, the logic of the geometry of the strings' formation and coalescence, Pauling, shortly before his death, indicated that he agreed that one might predict the mechanics of bonding . . . as applicable to subatomic bonds, atomic bonds (5 chemical bonds), including the Bjerknes hydrodynamic “action-at-a-distance” effect, van der Waals forces, and the Casimir force.

?
I agree with Juan R. :biggrin:
 
  • #59
The beautiful paradox of String Theory is that anyone dumb enough to devote 30 years of their life to a non-theory--a theory without postulates, laws, and experimental evidence--will also be dumb enough to defend that theory to the death.
 
  • #60
Bonds

Juan R. said:
?

A related question for you:

What is a bond?

A bond, as originally referenced herein, must be a physical manifestation, as must all phenomena . . . unlike currently proposed “action-at-a-distance.”

A bond is an attractive force that arises from the motion of energy when that energy is such that it is trying to separate that which intrinsically resists separation because of counter forces or the intrinsic nature of the source of that which will not separate.

Fundamental bonds are interacting, hyper-relativistic, complex-oscillating solitons that are within and without the nucleus of an atom. “Dark” energy is an extreme example of this solitonic phenomena as heuristically described by Taisoids. See: http://www.2-CQ.info/TaisoidDiscussion/

mcgucken said:
The beautiful paradox of String Theory is that anyone dumb enough to devote 30 years of their life to a non-theory--a theory without postulates, laws, and experimental evidence--will also be dumb enough to defend that theory to the death.

I have similar sentiments concerning the defense of paradigms that do not internally reconcile, do not reconcile with one another, and only reconcile with observation within narrowly, contrived parameters.

Concerning alternative theory, as per Weinberg's "new physics," Planck appears to have it right with his pessimism concerning "scientific innovation."
 
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  • #61
brunardot said:
Concerning alternative theory, as per Weinberg's "new physics," Planck appears to have it right with his pessimism concerning "scientific innovation."
Was able to find Plank's quote - that is pessimistic !–
I hope it isn’t really that bad when something well documented and verifiable is brought forward. I know it took some time for Einstein but as verification came in the majority of those disagreeing with it accepted relativity rather than disappearing – some maybe never did.
I’d hope things would be better now.

As to Weinberg's "new physics" comment.
I assume your referring to the one in the Bryce DeWitt Physics Today article Jan 2005. Also rather pessimistic.
I'd hope we can all do better than that.

RB
 
  • #62
There is much cause for Pessimism

RandallB said:
Was able to find Plank's quote - that is pessimistic !–
I hope it isn’t really that bad when something well documented and verifiable is brought forward. I know it took some time for Einstein but as verification came in the majority of those disagreeing with it accepted relativity rather than disappearing – some maybe never did.
I’d hope things would be better now.

As to Weinberg's "new physics" comment.
I assume your referring to the one in the Bryce DeWitt Physics Today article Jan 2005. Also rather pessimistic.
I'd hope we can all do better than that.

RB

Weinberg has been calling for the apparent need for a "new physics" since before "Dreams of a Final Theory," 1992.

Einstein was never personally accepted by American academia. A special institute (IAS) had to be built just for him because, as an outsider, he was not personally acceptable within the "Halls of Academia." His Nobel was given as a "slap in the face"; as, he didn't believe in QM for which he set the ground work; and, was so rewarded. SR and GR never earned him a Nobel . . .

As for someone coming forward that is "well documented and verifiable"; they must pass peer review to be so qualified. Peer review is a conspiracy to protect the sinecure of those threatened by such a Paradigm Shift.

I am nothing but pessimistic in the vein of Planck.

An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul.

What does happen is that its opponents gradually
die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning.

Max Planck [1858-1947]
The Philosophy of Physics, 1936

Carefully examine the logic of the posts at the two closed threads in this forum at: Number Theory, 1.) An elliptical constant; and, 2.) Is -1 a prime number?

Then compare the above, by clicking the below link, to the open-minded expression that is viewed elsewhere for discussion.

Number Theory

Truth will out when the marketplace for ideas is open and free flowing.

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad." -Aldous Huxley
 
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  • #63
Einstein was never personally accepted by American academia. A special institute (IAS) had to be built just for him because, as an outsider, he was not personally acceptable within the "Halls of Academia." His Nobel was given as a "slap in the face"; as, he didn't believe in QM for which he set the ground work; and, was so rewarded. SR and GR never earned him a Nobel . . .

The statement about the Institute for Advanced Study is wrong. When the IAS was planned, Einstein was still an apparently contented Professor at Berlin; it was only after it had been created and had its first members (the American mathematician Otto Veblen and others), that the Hitler regime come to power and Einstein was forced to leave Germany. The IAS leaped at the opportunity to offer the most famous physicst in the world a place.

I well remember that Einstein had a much better reception in "red state" academia than did Quantum Mechanics. Indiana University, for example had Vaclav Hlavaty, a worker in Einstein's Unified theory in the 1950s, but the physics department was trying mightlily to establish a modern classical physics tradition to compete with QM, for which not one course was given.
 
  • #64
selfAdjoint said:
The statement about the Institute for Advanced Study is wrong. When the IAS was planned, Einstein was still an apparently contented Professor at Berlin; it was only after it had been created and had its first members (the American mathematician Otto Veblen and others), that the Hitler regime come to power and Einstein was forced to leave Germany. The IAS leaped at the opportunity to offer the most famous physicst in the world a place.

I well remember that Einstein had a much better reception in "red state" academia than did Quantum Mechanics. Indiana University, for example had Vaclav Hlavaty, a worker in Einstein's Unified theory in the 1950s, but the physics department was trying mightlily to establish a modern classical physics tradition to compete with QM, for which not one course was given.

At my age, details often slightly transmute from conversations with Philip Morrison 50 years ago.

IAS was incorporated May 20, 1930; but did not open its doors until 1933, at which time Albert Einstein was its first professor.
 
  • #65
brunardot said:
A bond is an attractive force that arises from the motion of energy when that energy is such that it is trying to separate that which intrinsically resists separation because of counter forces or the intrinsic nature of the source of that which will not separate.

Fundamental bonds are interacting, hyper-relativistic, complex-oscillating solitons that are within and without the nucleus of an atom. “Dark” energy is an extreme example of this solitonic phenomena as heuristically described by Taisoids.

Only can say
!



P.S: Drugs are not good

Intrinsically of course
 
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  • #66
As said from string theory, one cannot predict anything. This irritatting point begins to be broadly admitted by most honest string theorists.

That experimental observation, if real, cannot be explained from string theory but, and this is my point, you can modify string theory for adapting it to that data once you know that data. Historically that was the way.

You appears rather confounded, I recommend to you The book “Hiding in the Mirror: The Mysterious Allure of Extra Dimensions,” to be published this year by Krauss.

Krauss, a leading expert on cosmic dark matter and dark energy, argues that string theorists have produced no satisfactory explanations for anything.

That is, basically, I said in April.

Berislav said:
Bosonic string theory is developed by at first leaving the number of dimensions unknown. One then (as I said before) because of unphysical (as you say, tachionic) residual terms in the commutation relation of the Lorentz boost and angular momentum operator imposes the 26 dimensionality. The residual terms are then zero. I don't see anything wrong with this. Maybe it isn't "elegant", but then again that is a subjective concept.

I will explain again. String theorists claimed to public that theory was elegant; all was fixed in the theory in a natural manner (still people believe that string theory contains a single parameter), and cannot be experimentally tested.

Reality is as follow. You begin from a 4D formulation (initially people did not leave dimensionality unknown) but quantizing the open bosonic string, you obtain the spectral decomposition for the first excited state.

<br /> m^2 = (2 \pi T_{0}) \left[1 - \frac{D-2}{24}\right]<br />

For D<26 you obtain violation of Lorentz invariance, and for D>26 you obtain negative square mass states and by Einstein mass formula

<br /> m = \frac{m_{0}}{\sqrt{1 - \frac{v^2}{c^2}}}<br />

tachionic behavior (v &gt; c). Both behaviors are not observed in nature (the tachionic behavior of ground state is ignored now), therefore the result D=26 is the direct outcome of a direct experimental test of string theory. String theory may be consistent with previous theories, which explain past and present experiments. E.g. choosing D=4, bosonic string theory cannot explain data that special relativity already explain.

Since 40 years ago, string theory has been experimentally tested and modified for adapting it to known data. This is the point that string theorists fail to adequately explain to people, young students, etc.

Berislav said:
Aha. So you dislike supesymmetry as well as string theory.

Physics is not about like or dislike. Physics may explain the world we know. The world that we know does not provide signs of multidimensional strings or supersymmetric states.

Until now, all our experience is about non-supersymmetric universe in 4D. A honest physicist would construct a theory for a non-supersymmetric universe in 4D and after if one day additional dimensions or supersimmetry are discovered then generalize the framework. But string theorists first developed a mathematical theory for 26D and then began the 40-years dark age.

Remember that supersimmetry was added to string theory for solving some of its consistency problems and violation of experimental data.

All of string theory is about add, and add, and add, and add until that one day you obtain a theory that nobody know, is not defined, it has so many conjectures, unproved beliefs and open questions that can say anything and the contrary of anything. For example, if supersymmetry is not observed in next accelerator generation, then string theoreticians will be invoke a new change of scale (as in the past) or will add some new mathematical device that “cancels” it. The “theory” (so say) is permanently in a safe state.

Berislav said:
I don't know about those approaches.

Ok, but people working in other fields knew it, and those true physicists developed those fantastic approaches without pompous claims such as that of Brian Greene and friends. String theorists, arrogant as they are, claimed that all was already known and explained by string theory: the most important theory! The Last formulation!

if I remember correctly, they discovered that traditional quantization is not sufficient 5 years ago, and now are adaptation previous old version of brane theory to new formalism as explained in article. Still today, they are working with the simplest version of formalism (developed 20 or 30 years ago by others) now we are working with new more general theories. Perhaps by 2015, some string theorist will say “hey guys, this is not rigorous, we may use this theory” (we are working today) for obtaining the 123th version of string theory.

Berislav said:
Contrary to "the ST popular claim of derivation of Einstein field equations". That is, that supersymmetry coupled with gravity isn't the low energy limit of superstring theory.

From ST one cannot derive GR.

Berislav said:
This sounds like a very important discovery! I thought that we couldn't reach the necessary energy to observe such radical changes in the laws of spacetime. Some references, please!

As said it is a rumor, there is not paper still, but is appears that result is solid.
It seems that deviations from Newton's gravitational law at distances slightly below 100 microns were detected at the "4 sigma" confidence level. Since assertion would be revolutionary an increase to "8 sigma" is being worked. Traditionally string theory has claimed for the contrary fact, (I even have seen the r^-7 corrections to Newtonian potential from Matrix theory) but don’t worry, if finally true, string theorists will invoke some new mathematical device for saving string theory again. That is will develop the 45th version of the “theory”.

Robert B. Laughlin said:
People have been changing string theory in wild ways because it has never worked.
 
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  • #67
brunardot said:
His Nobel was given as a "slap in the face"; as, he didn't believe in QM for which he set the ground work; and, was so rewarded. SR and GR never earned him a Nobel . .
Somebody gave you a bad "time line" on this as well.
His Noble Prize was in 1922. Quantum Mechanics didn’t start until 1925/26.

Quantum Physics is not incompatible with Classic Physics. Just as relativity is “classical” so is Quantum Physics, as Einstein choose to continue to work on it, is “classical”.
It is the Quantum Mechanical interpretation and explanation of Quantum Physics that is non-classical due to the uncertainty issue, as are theories that grow from it like Strings.
Is it frustrating, sure, most honest QM’ers admit it is too, but they work with it because it works.

The biggest problem I see with most opposition to QM is that they just oppose, or produce something with no real foundation (Classical or QM), but instead an even more bizarre foundation than uncertainty.

As to strings being a waste,
maybe some of the extreme versions are, but the idea has set some additional higher standards that any future explanation needs to cover in order to be a replacement theory.

For example:
Strings has been shown to be dependent on having 6 additional dimensions. However, that allowed for at least 5 “string viable” independent interpretations that couldn’t be reconciled until one more dimension was added, “M Theory”, for a total of 11.
To me this means a complete theory, be it classical or QM, must explain:
A) If real – Show where these extra dimensions are and what they do.
OR
B) If not real – explain why it appeared they were real.

Does this set the bar higher and more difficult?
Or is it more information and data that will helpful in reaching the goal?

I think it can be helpful, trick is figuring out how to climb the data.

RB
 
  • #68
Predictions

Juan R. said:
As said from string theory, one cannot predict anything. This irritatting point begins to be broadly admitted by most honest string theorists.

ST can predict much with slight adjustments in the theory.

Like for instance: the internal geometry of the "strings."

Unfortunately, its predictions cover the gamut of current enigmas, which theoretical physicists are loathe to discuss in detail. Probably, for fear their house of cards and their grants and sinecures will fall.
 
  • #69
mcgucken said:
The beautiful paradox of String Theory is that anyone dumb enough to devote 30 years of their life to a non-theory--a theory without postulates, laws, and experimental evidence--will also be dumb enough to defend that theory to the death.


Great!

Specially when in those 30 years other people have studied things that really work.

Due to failure of string M-theory for explaining physics, some string theorists are this year given talks on "religious" implications of string theory :biggrin:
 
  • #70
Stand

RandallB said:
Somebody gave you a bad "time line" on this as well.
His Noble Prize was in 1922. Quantum Mechanics didn’t start until 1925/26.

I will stand (or fall) on my basic statement.

(Did you miss the phrase, "he set the groundwork"?
 
  • #71
brunardot said:
ST can predict much with slight adjustments in the theory.

Like for instance: the internal geometry of the "strings."

Unfortunately, its predictions cover the gamut of current enigmas, which theoretical physicists are loathe to discuss in detail. Probably, for fear their house of cards and their grants and sinecures will fall.

On non-technical article cited above I talk of physical predictions.

In a this year preprint, Giddings even admits that he wait that string theory could not finally predict anything.

Some celebrated string theorists as Susskind begin to accept that the theory
cannot explain anything and this has caused some recent trouble. Susskind
adds:

Susskind said:
More and more as time goes on, the opponents of the idea admit that
they are simply in a state of depression and desperation.

The famous “cyber-string” theorist Luboš Motl has recently wrote

Luboš Motl said:
Some people really seem to be excited by the very fact that they can
embed a relatively convincing framework into string theory whose
conclusion is that we can't predict anything.

Etc
 
  • #72
Fall

brunardot said:
I will stand (or fall) on my basic statement.

(Did you miss the phrase, "he set the groundwork"?
That basic statement was; (His Nobel was a "slap in the face"; as, he didn't believe in QM ...)
The issue in 1911 to 1922 was that relativity was controversial, AND he was German; WW1 political issues between Nations etc. that obviously only got worse and these issues affected the Noble Committee.
Not a slap in the face prize, but a reluctant giving by a committee forced to give due to popular worldwide demand for the man and for SR & GR. So, even if they refused to put SR & GR in the award, that’s what really got him there - wide acceptance of his new "scientific innovation".

Yes, the prize highlighted Light as quantum – setting the groundwork from 1900 for Quantum Physics, not Quantum Mechanics. The groundwork for Quantum Mechanics wasn’t set until 5 years later, thus that QM issue with Einstein did not start until after 1925.

I’ll vote for FALL
 
  • #73
Juan R. said:
if I remember correctly, they discovered that traditional quantization is not sufficient 5 years ago

You have said this before. Could you gives us a statement or link to clarify it? Is it light cone quantization you are talking about or something else?
 
  • #74
selfAdjoint said:
Is it light cone quantization you are talking about or something else?
I don't think he's referring to that. He mentioned something about:
Juan R. said:
LPS in Gelfand triplets!
in post #32.
 
  • #75
RandallB said:
That basic statement was; (His Nobel was a "slap in the face"; as, he didn't believe in QM ...)
The issue in 1911 to 1922 was that relativity was controversial, AND he was German; WW1 political issues between Nations etc. that obviously only got worse and these issues affected the Noble Committee.
Not a slap in the face prize, but a reluctant giving by a committee forced to give due to popular worldwide demand for the man and for SR & GR. So, even if they refused to put SR & GR in the award, that’s what really got him there - wide acceptance of his new "scientific innovation".

Yes, the prize highlighted Light as quantum – setting the groundwork from 1900 for Quantum Physics, not Quantum Mechanics. The groundwork for Quantum Mechanics wasn’t set until 5 years later, thus that QM issue with Einstein did not start until after 1925.

I’ll vote for FALL

The intent of intellectual discussion should be that all participants remain upright with a broadened vision.

There was plenty of time before the morning of April 19, 1955 to award a Nobel for SR and GR if the original intent was not a "slap in the face" by the inside academic elite.

Don't forget that for many of these years Einstein detested the cavalierness of Oppenheimer, which was reciprocal if you carefully read "between the lines.".

I raise salient issues throughout this thread and other threads on this forum; yet, everyone attacks minutia and stops/locks large threads without letting me reply; yet, there is a loud "ignore"-ance on the important issues that I raise for discussion.

Am I to understand the salient issues that I raise are accepted without discussion as being correct; and, only the minutia requires tweaking?

Where is sensibility and intellectual inquiry within theoretical physics, which I continue to insist is entirely based on metaphysical concepts of forces and mathematics.
 
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  • #76
String theory is a waste of time. Maldacena quote

People, laymen, young undergraduate students are rather wrong about real status of string theory. One reads articles in popular magazines like Scientific American, news on New York Times or simply read methaphysical books by Kaku, Greene, etc. and one say Woh! string theory is fantastic.

But when one take courses, read articles, and study last advances in the topic, non-commutative strings theory, spacetime foam non critical, M(atrix), TFD-Dp-brane theory, etc., one discovers that:

i) many string theorists are very arrogant.

ii) the theory is not sophisticated in a number of points.

In fact string theory is very trivial in a number of aspects. They ignore the work of others and are working in a theory that others know that is childish. For example, in the 60 Nobel laureate for Chemistry Ilya Prigogine developed novel mathematical thecniques that begin to be used on string theory now! But now Prigogine has developed at least three new versions of his old theory. Again string theory is completely outdated, as claimed by many many many specialists.

iii) The "success" of string theory is, on own words of Peter Woit, on public media.

People know string theory but the flaws of theory are always "hidden" on public talks and books. In Elegant Universe you learn about by string theory shows that universe like 4D. But some years after Witten states in an interview that nobody know that (?) and add that string theorists have not reply.

I said during last years that idea of prediction from string theory is completely false. From string theory one can rigorously compute nothing. All claimed exageratios one can derive parts of standard model, or dimensionality of universe, or predicting gravity, or the entropy of Black holes, or obtaining Einstein GR are as follow.

String theory says A = x + y. We know that y = 5.

- Hey guy, what is the experimental value obtained for A?
- 12.

Then x = 7. String theory predicts the correct value A = 12!

Obviously that is not a prediction. And, morever, as denunciated during decades by others theorists, string theory can predict anything and contrary to anything. If experimental value was -12 then they would take x = -17.

I am increasing my personal collections of recent quotes from string theorists. The last is from Maldacena.

Juan Maldacena said:
I agree with Fredrik that studying the Landscape is very important.
It would be nice to find a smaller number of vacua, so that
predictions are possible.

so that predictions are possible. But 1) nobody has found the correct vacua and cannot predict and 2) last studies show that the number is "infinite", 10^500 or more.

Exceptics of the quote can find it here

http://cosmicvariance.com/2005/07/21/two-cheers-for-string-theory/
 
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  • #77
light cone quantization? No thanks!

selfAdjoint said:
Is it light cone quantization you are talking about or something else?

I am talking of serious stuff. No Berislav, string theorists are totally outdated. They yet unkown RHS quantization of LPS, that was discussed (if i remember correctly in the Solvay Conference of 1996), i suspect that string theorists will discover that around 2015 or so.

Then, as always they do, will omit all quote to people of conference or in usual literature and call to that string theory. In fact, that is normal unethical phylosophy on that field

string theorist Seiberg said:
string theorists are arrogant enough that whatever comes up in their
research, they will call it string theory.

I was talking of new vector states |Phy>> (which are not Dirac states |Phy>), the new thermal vacuum, the new tilde operation, the new doubled hamiltonian, etc, etc.

On page 10 and 11 of

www.canonicalscience.com/stringcriticism.pdf[/URL]

you will find more information. After use a simply literature engine and learn that material. I am sorry but i have no time now for search literature for you. I am with the translation of material to new sede of the Center.

Moreover, i am preparing an small, rather revolutionary, article for submision (probably Phys Rev letters). If i am correct, and did no error, then this article shows in a convincing form that string theory is completely wrong.
 
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  • #78
Juan R. said:
I am sorry but i have no time now for search literature for you. I am with the translation of material to new sede of the Center.

Moreover, i am preparing an small, rather revolutionary, article for submision (probably Phys Rev letters). If i am correct, and did no error, then this article shows in a convincing form that string theory is completely wrong.

Hello Juan, what direction are you translating: is it for example Spanish to English? I don't understand your phrase "new sede of the Center", my first guess is that you are preparing a new web-page or a new web-site. Did you mean to write "new site for the Center"?

I wish you success in preparing your article. I hope that you are able to post it on arXiv, in preprint form, so that those of us who wish to can have a look.

the main reason for my posting is that I would like to add two papers to the discussion of the fruitfulness (or barrenness) of string research.

these papers suggest that the answer to your original question could be a QUALIFIED NO. One possible position one could take, it seems to me, is to say that NO, the research would not be a waste of time IF it is directed towards constructing a formulation of string which is BACKGROUND INDEPENDENT.

A possible avenue is offered here
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503140
A quantization of topological M theory
Lee Smolin
20 pages
"A conjecture is made as to how to quantize topological M theory. We study a Hamiltonian decomposition of Hitchin's 7-dimensional action and propose a formulation for it in terms of 13 first class constraints. The theory has 2 degrees of freedom per point, and hence is diffeomorphism invariant, but not strictly speaking topological. The result is argued to be equivalent to Hitchin's formulation. The theory is quantized using loop quantum gravity methods. An orthonormal basis for the diffeomorphism invariant states is given by diffeomorphism classes of networks of two dimensional surfaces in the six dimensional manifold. The hamiltonian constraint is polynomial and can be regulated by methods similar to those used in LQG.
To connect topological M theory to full M theory, a reduction from 11 dimensional supergravity to Hitchin's 7 dimensional theory is proposed. One important conclusion is that the complex and symplectic structures represent non-commuting degrees of freedom. This may have implications for attempts to construct phenomenologies on Calabi-Yau compactifications."

and an argument that a correct theory of quantum gravity must be background independent (together with a discussion of what this means) is given here
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507235
The case for background independence
Lee Smolin
46 pages
"The aim of this paper is to explain carefully the arguments behind the assertion that the correct quantum theory of gravity must be background independent. We begin by recounting how the debate over whether quantum gravity must be background independent is a continuation of a long-standing argument in the history of physics and philosophy over whether space and time are relational or absolute. This leads to a careful statement of what physicists mean when we speak of background independence. Given this we can characterize the precise sense in which general relativity is a background independent theory. The leading background independent approaches to quantum gravity are then discussed, including causal set models, loop quantum gravity and dynamical triangulations and their main achievements are summarized along with the problems that remain open. Some first attempts to cast string/M theory into a background independent formulation are also mentioned.
The relational/absolute debate has implications also for other issues such as unification and how the parameters of the standard models of physics and cosmology are to be explained. The recent issues concerning the string theory landscape are reviewed and it is argued that they can only be resolved within the context of a background independent formulation. Finally, we review some recent proposals to make quantum theory more relational."
 
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  • #79
marcus said:
Hello Juan, what direction are you translating: is it for example Spanish to English? I don't understand your phrase "new sede of the Center", my first guess is that you are preparing a new web-page or a new web-site. Did you mean to write "new site for the Center"?

I wish you success in preparing your article. I hope that you are able to post it on arXiv, in preprint form, so that those of us who wish to can have a look.

the main reason for my posting is that I would like to add two papers to the discussion of the fruitfulness (or barrenness) of string research.

these papers suggest that the answer to your original question could be a QUALIFIED NO. One possible position one could take, it seems to me, is to say that NO, the research would not be a waste of time IF it is directed towards constructing a formulation of string which is BACKGROUND INDEPENDENT.

A possible avenue is offered here
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0503140
A quantization of topological M theory
Lee Smolin
20 pages
"A conjecture is made as to how to quantize topological M theory. We study a Hamiltonian decomposition of Hitchin's 7-dimensional action and propose a formulation for it in terms of 13 first class constraints. The theory has 2 degrees of freedom per point, and hence is diffeomorphism invariant, but not strictly speaking topological. The result is argued to be equivalent to Hitchin's formulation. The theory is quantized using loop quantum gravity methods. An orthonormal basis for the diffeomorphism invariant states is given by diffeomorphism classes of networks of two dimensional surfaces in the six dimensional manifold. The hamiltonian constraint is polynomial and can be regulated by methods similar to those used in LQG.
To connect topological M theory to full M theory, a reduction from 11 dimensional supergravity to Hitchin's 7 dimensional theory is proposed. One important conclusion is that the complex and symplectic structures represent non-commuting degrees of freedom. This may have implications for attempts to construct phenomenologies on Calabi-Yau compactifications."

and an argument that a correct theory of quantum gravity must be background independent (together with a discussion of what this means) is given here
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507235
The case for background independence
Lee Smolin
46 pages
"The aim of this paper is to explain carefully the arguments behind the assertion that the correct quantum theory of gravity must be background independent. We begin by recounting how the debate over whether quantum gravity must be background independent is a continuation of a long-standing argument in the history of physics and philosophy over whether space and time are relational or absolute. This leads to a careful statement of what physicists mean when we speak of background independence. Given this we can characterize the precise sense in which general relativity is a background independent theory. The leading background independent approaches to quantum gravity are then discussed, including causal set models, loop quantum gravity and dynamical triangulations and their main achievements are summarized along with the problems that remain open. Some first attempts to cast string/M theory into a background independent formulation are also mentioned.
The relational/absolute debate has implications also for other issues such as unification and how the parameters of the standard models of physics and cosmology are to be explained. The recent issues concerning the string theory landscape are reviewed and it is argued that they can only be resolved within the context of a background independent formulation. Finally, we review some recent proposals to make quantum theory more relational."

Hello Marcus, thanks by your proffesional advice!

First i would apologize by my lasts errors on posts. Since that it is so important for you, let me to say the trick "translating -> moving" and "sede -> 'office'".

No, I do not post it on ArXiv, it was submited.

Let me be highly sceptic of the "QUALIFIED NO".

Even if you obtain a BACKGROUND INDEPENDENT formulation of string theory the reply continues to be not NO.

Thanks by articles, but are not of utility for me. M theory is waste of time and relationism does not work (in fact, it is wrong).
 
  • #80
First of all let my apologize for not responding sooner. I've been away and didn't have access to the internet.

Juan R. said:
You appears rather confounded, I recommend to you The book “Hiding in the Mirror: The Mysterious Allure of Extra Dimensions,” to be published this year by Krauss.
Thank you, but I would prefer a technical account of string theory's suppossed fatal flaws. Pop-science books would make me even more confounded.

Juan R. said:
You begin from a 4D formulation (initially people did not leave dimensionality unknown) but quantizing the open bosonic string, you obtain the spectral decomposition for the first excited state... etc.
Yes. I think that you will find exactly that after applying the spectral theorem to the operator I mentioned. And like I said I agree with you that this doesn't seem elegant.

marcus said:
I wish you success in preparing your article.
I too wish you success, Juan R.
 
  • #81
There are many different pursuits within string theory that might be a waste of time, but the basic ideas certainly are not.

But string theory has done something WORSE than be a waste of time. It has been the poster child for a harmful and misleading crusade against young people - that physicists are near the end of their journey and we don't need anymore help thank you very much. Championing string theory via the Elegant Universe to the public while in its current form was shameful and irresponsible.
 
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  • #82
Telos said:
There are many different pursuits within string theory that might be a waste of time, but the basic ideas certainly are not.

But string theory has done something WORSE than be a waste of time. It has been the poster child for a harmful and misleading crusade against young people - that physicists are near the end of their journey and we don't need anymore help thank you very much. Championing string theory via the Elegant Universe to the public while in its current form was shameful and irresponsible.

that's an interesting point of view, Telos. basically you are disapproving of the hype to the public, and not the internal hype and self-indulgence (among initiates) or the over-investment of brain-time. I think quite a few people would agree with you, can't say that I would entirely.
 
  • #83
Berislav said:
Thank you, but I would prefer a technical account of string theory's suppossed fatal flaws. Pop-science books would make me even more confounded.

On that book you will find references to modern work.
 
  • #84
Juan R. said:
You appear rather confounded, I recommend to you The book “Hiding in the Mirror: The Mysterious Allure of Extra Dimensions,” to be published this year by Krauss.

Juan R. said:
On that book you will find references to modern work.

Juan you have made me curious. How do you know? Have you seen a draft copy, or some preprint sections, of Larry Krauss' book? Please share what information you have about the book.
 
  • #85
Telos said:
There are many different pursuits within string theory that might be a waste of time, but the basic ideas certainly are not.

The basic ideas also were a waste of time. For instance:

- the idea that a single parameter could be used for predicting all (False).
- The idea of unidimensional strings explaining all (False). The hundred of elementary particles would be reduced to a single string vibrating in different modes (False). M-theory is many times more complex that QFT, with all kind of unobserved objects from pointlike particles (D0) to nine-dimensional objects, passing by membranes, etc.
- The idea of that field theory pointlike behavior was "stupid", a heavy approximation to elegant math of extended objects (False).
- The idea of quantum gravitation WAS a spin-2 perturbation on a classical flat metric (False).
- Etc.

For example, i remain atonished that string theorists have a special facility for hiddeing to public that the formulation of M-theory known is a quantum mechanics of pointlike particles: the D0-branes. The old concept of string -as other extended objects of old theory- arises like an approximation.
 
  • #86
Juan R. said:
The basic ideas also were a waste of time. For instance:

Dear Juan, I do wish you didn't SOUND so opinionated. Sure we probably all are opinionated in some ways but we don't express it quite so categorically, and the conversation benefits, I think, from that restraint. But maybe that is just your STYLE and I shouldn't quibble about stylistic oddities.

By the way thank you for informing us about Krauss book, scheduled to come out in just two months (October 20)!

Juan R. said:
You appear rather confounded, I recommend to you The book “Hiding in the Mirror: The Mysterious Allure of Extra Dimensions,” to be published this year by Krauss.

Juan R. said:
On that book you will find references to modern work.

I didn't know about this book until you mentioned it just now. I found this on google

 
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  • #87
My goodness!
Following Juan's pointer I went to Amazon and found Krauss book ("the allure of hidden dimensions, from Plato to String Theory") due out 20 october, but I also came across this!



All Strung Out

by Lee Smolin!

For sale at Amazon.co.UK, the price is 19.15 sterling.
Apparently the publisher Basic Books brought it out on 3 July.
 
  • #88
Juan, I do not think it is a waste of time to show that something is false.

Interesting book, though!
 
  • #89
marcus said:
Juan you have made me curious. How do you know? Have you seen a draft copy, or some preprint sections, of Larry Krauss' book? Please share what information you have about the book.

No i did not see the book. I was informed about him talking with a friend. Moreover, it appears that its publication data has been delayed but i am not sure.
 
  • #90
marcus said:
Dear Juan, I do wish you didn't SOUND so opinionated. Sure we probably all are opinionated in some ways but we don't express it quite so categorically, and the conversation benefits, I think, from that restraint. But maybe that is just your STYLE and I shouldn't quibble about stylistic oddities.

Marcus, i understand that talking about quantum gravity is often a heated debate. But you would appreciate my evaluation of the theory. I am not alone here. Many other scientists have said similar words about string “theory” and lot of them assure like I am doing that string theory is a waste of time, including a previous student that began a PhD on string theory and abandoned the fields because considered that was a waste of time.

You can be sceptic of my evaluation of the theory (that is not a problem for me). But my evaluation is, exactly, that string theory is a waste of time (and money). I could search other words for you but the message would be the same.

You are well-versed Marcus and probably know the history of Albert Einstein, who failed in his search to find a unified theory of forces in the universe, spending the last three decades of his life isolated from the scientific community.

Glashow (the Nobel laureate) said,

So when one person spends 30 years, it's a waste, but when thousands waste 20 years in modern day, they celebrate with champagne. I find that curious.

Einstein unified field theory was a waste of time because Einstein did not follow the scientific method (Einstein ignored experimental data on nuclear forces for instance).

String theory is completely outdated. It is based in concepts and ideas of the 90s. To work in it is a waste of time (and money).
 
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  • #91
Telos said:
Juan, I do not think it is a waste of time to show that something is false.

Interesting book, though!

I see the book Juan mentioned (that amazon says is due out in October) is by the same physicist/cosmologist/popular author who wrote "The Physics of Star Trek" and "Fear of Phyics: a Guide to the Perplexed".

Telos, you are definitely on to something about time spent drawing testable conclusions from a theory so that it may be shown false.
 
  • #92
Juan R. said:
You can be sceptic of my evaluation of the theory (that is not a problem for me). But my evaluation is, exactly, that string theory is a waste of time (and money). I could search other words for you but the message would be the same.
...

I am skeptical of the broad way the evaluation is stated. There are several things to say. One is that your opinion is shared (in a qualified way) by a growing number of physicists, for reasons that were mentioned in this earlier PF thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=80760

In this thread, which Ratzinger started in June 2005, some knowledgeable PF people like Haelfix, selfAdjoint, Ohwilleke, concisely reported some reasons why there has been a decline, over the past 3 years or so, in interest and popularity of string research.

Increasing worry and pessimism among string researchers was reflected in the Toronto discussion video.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84585
One encounters expressions of disillusion among graduate students---some of whom are changing fields---and symptomatic efforts being made by string-loyal bloggers (such as Motl and Distler) to shore up morale among the graduate students.

We also see some statistical indications of the decline in string interest, popularity, optimism. One can always argue about how to interpret the various statistical measures, however.

I must say that observing this string "downsizing" going on has increased my respect for the honesty and courage of certain researchers such as Andy Strominger. He made an excellent two minute statement in the Toronto discussion at time 1:28:20
It put me in mind of a story in the Bible where a general tells his soldiers that anyone who wants to can go home, and about half of them leave (this is called "downsizing"), then the remaining ones go on to win the battle.

Anyway Juan, I will try to say what I think about your message that string theory is a waste of time.
 
  • #93
marcus said:
...Anyway Juan, I will try to say what I think about your message that string theory is a waste of time.

1. it doesn't mean anything unless you say FOR WHOM it is a waste of time.

2. increasing numbers of people seem to be deciding that FOR THEM it is a waste of time, and so they are getting out of the field, or they are not writing so many research papers as they did. (However on arxiv I see a growing number of string papers by people at Beijing Normal and other large Chinese universities. These people do not think string is a waste of time for them and they are responsible for an increasing fraction of the research postings.)

3. your statement does not have a clear meaning unless you specify a waste of time AS WHAT. I think a lot of people would agree that string theory can lead to ideas and results that are interesting AS MATHEMATICS.

4. your statement would not apply to a mathematically gifted young person who goes into string and discovers something interesting and valuable AS MATHEMATICS. You cannot say that such a person is wasting their time!
What gives mathematics intrinsic WORTH is the interest it evokes from other mathematicians. It does not need to be a fundamental testable model of nature.

5. however your message, suitably qualified and restricted, is a very helpful one to have expressed---and voicing it actually DOES STRING THEORISTS A FAVOR by increasing the pressure on them to arrive at a nonperturbative background independent formulation that makes falsifiable predictions. This is the only way to be sure that string theorizing is not a waste of time AS PHYSICS.
 
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  • #94
marcus said:
Telos, you are definitely on to something about time spent drawing testable conclusions from a theory so that it may be shown false.

Wish I could say I thought of it myself!
 
  • #95
Telos said:
Wish I could say I thought of it myself!

the important ideas are like that. you only pass them along, instead of originating them
 
  • #96
As said, I do not think that the decline of string research program is just temporary one. In the past, there were difficulties but now people is seeing that each year original objectives of string theory are far, and far, and farther. String theory history looks like a divergent asymptotic series.

Marcus said:
I must say that observing this string "downsizing" going on has increased my respect for the honesty and courage of certain researchers such as Andy Strominger.

Said I the contrary? I am against half-true that many string physicists popularized as the new standard in scientific communication. I am also against arrogance typical of many string theorists (of course not all).

Now, let me reply your very interesting comments.

Marcus said:
1. it doesn't mean anything unless you say FOR WHOM it is a waste of time.

I disagree; I provided abundant data in all aspects of the theory (geometry, hidden dimensions pointlike behavior, spectral decomposition, relativity, arrow of time, reductionism, etc.) and already explained that I was talking of string theory like a TOE on post #5.

As said by Nobel laureate P. Anderson this year, string theory is a futile exercise as physics. I substituted “futile exercise” by “waste of time” but my evaluation of string theory continues being correct.

I would state that string theorists provide none serious argument why we would believe on string theory, only bold statements like "it is the most promising way" or wrong claims like "is the only was to quantum gravity". I see an injustice here with people that are not string believers.

Marcus said:
2. increasing numbers of people seem to be deciding that FOR THEM it is a waste of time, and so they are getting out of the field, or they are not writing so many research papers as they did. (However on arxiv I see a growing number of string papers by people at Beijing Normal and other large Chinese universities. These people do not think string is a waste of time for them and they are responsible for an increasing fraction of the research postings.)

I am sorry to say this Marcus but this kind of argument is childish. A theory (or hypothesis) is not a “futile exercise as physics” on function of the number of papers or researchers working in it. Or would I remember to you the number of papers in early investigation of perturbative quantum gravity until was shown that QGR was nonrenormalizable on independence of parameter of expansion taken. All previous work in dozens of attempts to quantize GR directly were a waste of time.


Marcus said:
3. your statement does not have a clear meaning unless you specify a waste of time AS WHAT. I think a lot of people would agree that string theory can lead to ideas and results that are interesting AS MATHEMATICS.

The premise is obvious when one know why was formulated string theory. String theory is a “theory” of physics. Its main objectives are unification of forces quantizing gravity, systematization of the standard model, and possibly the explanation of some cosmological mysterious.

Has string theory been interesting on mathematical topics? Of course, but that does not justify the hype around it and its study on physics dept. Moreover, let me say that the impact of string theory in the whole of mathematics is not so huge, at least, it is not more important (by orders of magnitude) that impact of some field theoretical techniques. For example, contrary to popular belief, Fields Medal awarded to Witten was not by the application of pure string theory methods to math, most of mathematical work of Witten was from field theory. Atiyah, who is many times more smart and versed that i in these topics, affirms that string theory has had an impact on mathematics which has been really quite extraordinary. Well, he said that in a popular interview. However, far from popular claims, I see not radical advances on mathematics as provided by the own Atiyah on "index theorems" (theory of quantum operators in quantum field theory).

Marcus said:
4. your statement would not apply to a mathematically gifted young person who goes into string and discovers something interesting and valuable AS MATHEMATICS. You cannot say that such a person is wasting their time!
What gives mathematics intrinsic WORTH is the interest it evokes from other mathematicians. It does not need to be a fundamental testable model of nature.

Already replied. That young mathematician, if interested in string “theory”, would focus on the mathematical branches below string physical theory, including non-commutative geometry, G2 manifolds, K theory, topology, and news branches of analyses and algebra, etc. Of course, with an eye in the “physical” stuff.

Marcus said:
5. however your message, suitably qualified and restricted, is a very helpful one to have expressed---and voicing it actually DOES STRING THEORISTS A FAVOR by increasing the pressure on them to arrive at a nonperturbative background independent formulation that makes falsifiable predictions. This is the only way to be sure that string theorizing is not a waste of time AS PHYSICS.

This is a very, very astonishing simplification of the problem. Background independence is not the magical cure to all problems of string theory. Even if one day a background independent version of string theory is achieved (I doubt), string theory will continue to be a waste of time like a TOE. Moreover, it will continue to be as non-predictive like is now.

Do not forget that LQG is claimed background independent whereas continue to be an “inefficient” approach to quantum gravity. In fact, there is no possibility for obtaining a consistent classical limit converging to GR after of 40 years from Hamiltonina gravity: geometrodynamics, Astherkar QGR, LQG, etc.

Smolin, as others loop theoreticians, assumes that relationism is correct, but it is not as already said. The idea of that causality becomes a fuzzy notion because of fluctuation of light cones is completely wrong.
 
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  • #97
i am sure strings are going to disappear and first sign of this is the idea os landscape of vacuua. it is such a comic trash that during seminar you feel like quiting physics because such are the things promoted as future directions.

but stringers cannot fool th world much long and more so because some of them are serious researchers with a conscience still alive.

plase read freeman Dyson: disturbing the universe and you will know hy string theory qualifies as a failure.

The problem of delay in this being branded a failure is obvious, INERTIA. there are too many researchers persuing it who are trained as stringers unlike the masters who were all high energy physicists. S now we have this young generation of ignorant people who doesn't even know where to find mistake to stop doing it since they simply do not know physics. It is just poor quality mathematics.
 
  • #98
lightcone said:
i am sure strings are going to disappear and first sign of this is the idea os landscape of vacuua. it is such a comic trash that during seminar you feel like quiting physics because such are the things promoted as future directions.

but stringers cannot fool th world much long and more so because some of them are serious researchers with a conscience still alive.
...

I agree with the respect you show for serious and principled researchers
"...serious researchers with a conscience..."

Public support for physics ultimately depends on the trust that nonspecialists have in the self-critical, "self-policing" ability of theorists to remain engaged with empirical reality. So your perception that there are some who are not indulging in a mathematical escapade is very important.
 
  • #99
Juan said:
"inefficient"
CDT path integral has not given any signs of being an inefficient approach to quantum gravity, and to the extent that one can compare the two rather different approaches I would say that it is MORE background independent than canonical LQG.

Among tested, well-established theories, General Relativity is the most background independent model we have. When quantizing Gen Rel, it is obvious to try to preserve the B.I. feature if one can. The comparative success or failure of various attempts to do this is not relevant to the validity of the effort.

With both String and canonical Loop experiencing difficulties, one sees that it is actually the most background independent approach that is currently making the most progress.
 
  • #100
Marcus
On Strings I feel it’s future may well becoming a waste land. But I believe it has been very valuable in identifying the 11 dimensions issue. Lack of progress indicates that this idea is likely just wrong. But ANY future theory that proves 11 D as wrong, should also be able to explain why the 11 D issue appeared to be viable at all. Just this additional ‘test’ of future theories, I think that can be worth quite a bit.

Also, You mentioned something else I could use a little help on “how I think”
marcus said:
Among tested, well-established theories, General Relativity is the most background independent model we have.
Having never really put it into words before, but I’d though of GM as background dependent. That is with the “warping” of space time was still a manipulation of a background dependent interpretation of space and time.

Your comment tells me I need to Fine Tune my thinking a bit. Does the following make sense:

SR Special Relativity - background dependent
Works on a ‘dependant’ background of space and time in a classical manner. Just the Newton formulas were inadequate and the measures of space or distance over time need to be understood by the better formulas provided by relativity.

GR General Relativity - background independent
The use of a warping of time and space into “space/time’ to understand gravity, releases us from a background dependent measure. That is the physics we see, relativity included, is not dependent on any background traceable measure in either distance. But rather only dependent on the “relationships” between physics events that cannot be tied down to a measurable background reference of space and time.

A fine point but seems an important one I’d not fully recognized.

In a similar fashion :

Quantum Theory - background dependent
Quantized the minimum amount of energy to be found in light “packets” now photons. And set minimum size of change in measure we could expect to ever make in both time and distance (space). Natural limitations associated with this made near impossible to make significant progress until.

Quantum Mechanics - background independent
Instead of “warping” the relationship of time and space, used the uncertainty principal to allow measure and predictions at the quantum level to become understandable.
Thus one way to explain the inability of combining the physics of QM and GR even though they are both “background independent” is that they arrived at their independence in dramatically different forms (warping vs., probabilities) that we so far have been unable to interrelate.
(I'd previously considered not being able to combine the two as a dependent vs. independent issue)

Is this a reasonable tune up to my thinking?
Let me know if I’ve gone off track on the “background” issue as it is a bit new to me.

Also are there any other “well-established theories” that arrive at their background independence though some other manner than GR or QM? I’m assuming that most all, like M-Strings, have their foundation in QM.

Thanks
RB
 
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