- #31
somsom
- 11
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very execelent anser.Nomy-the wanderer said:
why the need for honesty?
are you honest, so you need people honest to you too ?
Is the belief that things could always be worse helpful or harmful?
Click For Summary
Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the value of honesty, exploring its importance, the necessity of white lies, and the moral implications of lying. Participants share their perspectives on whether honesty is universally regarded as the most important value and debate the conditions under which lying may be acceptable.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Conceptual clarification
- Exploratory
Main Points Raised
- Some participants question whether most people truly consider honesty as the most important value, suggesting alternatives like personal integrity or generosity.
- There is a proposal that white lies can be acceptable, particularly in situations like surprise parties, where the intent is to create joy.
- One participant argues that honesty does not require absolute specificity and can include non-verbal responses that convey truth.
- Another viewpoint suggests that while people desire honesty from loved ones, they may not strive for it themselves, indicating a potential disconnect between expectation and practice.
- Some participants assert that lying is only considered wrong when done with malicious intent, while others argue that lying is inherently wrong except in specific circumstances.
- A participant expresses a preference for a world where everyone tells the truth, despite acknowledging it may be boring.
- Concerns are raised about the subjective nature of determining when a lie is for the good of others, highlighting the potential for rationalization and grey areas in moral judgment.
- One participant compares honesty to a solid documentary and lies to a bad soap opera, suggesting that honesty has a lasting quality that lies lack.
- Another participant shares a personal commitment to honesty, emphasizing the emotional relief that comes from not having to maintain lies.
- There is a mention of the social implications of lying, with one participant reflecting on their own experiences with honesty and friendship.
- Finally, a contrasting view is presented that survival may take precedence over honesty, suggesting a more pragmatic approach to moral dilemmas.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants express a range of views on the value of honesty and the acceptability of lying, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus.
Contextual Notes
Participants highlight the complexity of moral judgments regarding honesty and lying, noting that definitions and interpretations can vary significantly. The discussion reflects a variety of personal experiences and philosophical stances on the topic.
why the need for honesty?
are you honest, so you need people honest to you too ?
- #32
Jameson
- 4,533
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So when one asks another, "Are you a liar?", can the asker really know anything from the response?
More of a rhetorical question. I think asking someone if they lie is one of the most pointless questions as one can never reach a logical believable answer.
As to the original post, I agree that the intent of what one says is very important in the matter of honesty. The only problem with getting away with these "white lies" is that one person's definition of a white lie may not concur with another's.
Example:
A husband comes home from work to see his wife having sex with his brother. He confronts her about it and she replies, "I just didn't want to hurt you. You'd be happier not knowing".
More of a rhetorical question. I think asking someone if they lie is one of the most pointless questions as one can never reach a logical believable answer.
As to the original post, I agree that the intent of what one says is very important in the matter of honesty. The only problem with getting away with these "white lies" is that one person's definition of a white lie may not concur with another's.
Example:
A husband comes home from work to see his wife having sex with his brother. He confronts her about it and she replies, "I just didn't want to hurt you. You'd be happier not knowing".
- #33
somsom
- 11
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good example, that happens many times. never believe in fox's reasoningsJameson said:
- #34
Lisa!
Gold Member
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I think people who aren't faithful ,are the most terrible kind of a liar!
- #35
Nomy-the wanderer
- 172
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I don't think so..
- #36
Jameson
- 4,533
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Lisa! said:
I find it interesting that you rate lies by degrees of "wrongness", something that I do also. I'm not agreeing with your statement but I would say that most of us find certain lies worse than others. Why? Humans are so illogical sometimes.
- #37
Lisa!
Gold Member
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Yes,they are.I think the reason you do sth is important sometimes.Not all the time.Jameson said:
I think people who aren't faithful are lying somehow at least to themselves and telling a lie to yourself is really bad!it's difficult to explain why I think they're lying maybe because as you said "humans are so illogical sometimes."who knows maybe they're logical exactly when they have no reason to prove they're right!
- #38
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
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Lisa! said:
Can you really lay down a universal law that lying to yourself isn't really bad? Think of Hitler who lied to himself about the Jews, or Lenin who did so about the Kulaks. A person who systematically lies to himself is apt to act upon a falsehood, and that can lead anywhere.
Consider that someone who lies to their spouse hurts that person, and maybe a few others - children, members of their circle, etc. But someone who lies to themselves can hurt millions.
- #39
Nomy-the wanderer
- 172
- 1
Lisa most humans on Earth lie to themselves...
1st of all every person has an image for himself in his mind, the picture must be beautifull to be bearable, fqaithgull or not, sometimes people convince themselves that they r soemthing they aren't and maybe cannot be..
Some people suddenly wake up and look carefully again, and discover the truth, and some don't...it's not because they r bad people who want to lie but it's how they see it.And even if they felt soemthing wron , this is hard to accept..
1st of all every person has an image for himself in his mind, the picture must be beautifull to be bearable, fqaithgull or not, sometimes people convince themselves that they r soemthing they aren't and maybe cannot be..
Some people suddenly wake up and look carefully again, and discover the truth, and some don't...it's not because they r bad people who want to lie but it's how they see it.And even if they felt soemthing wron , this is hard to accept..
- #40
Lisa!
Gold Member
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Why should I do that?I think it's really bad.How is it possible to know myself when I'm not honest with myself?and when I don't know myself how is it possible to know what I should be looking for in my life?selfAdjoint said:
Bigger lie hurts more people.I don't know why I think first you should be dishonest with yourself then you can lie to others!
Sometimes we say sth that we don't believe it.maybe Hitler just lied to others not himself about Jews in order to achieve his goals.
Anyway could you please explain why you think Hitler and Lenin lied to themselves?I mean what kind of lie?and what do you think about all politiciens like Bush?are they lying to themselves too?and why?
- #41
Lisa!
Gold Member
- 650
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That's why the world is so terrible.Nomy-the wanderer said:
I agree with you but sometimes people around someone are guilty about this unreal image.they never tell you what they really think about you.sometimes we think we're really good because others are worse...
I don't think all of them are bad but at least I don't want to be one of them!
- #42
Nomy-the wanderer
- 172
- 1
Yeah people can be guilty cause they don't look thoroughly but there r a lot of causes for that..
- #43
Lisa!
Gold Member
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anyway,I can't trust all people's ideas about me!
- #44
Dr.Yes
- 92
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Lisa! asks, "please expand"
1) Honesty is an expression of a person's actual interpretation of an occurrence:
Invariably and unconsciously a person will favour one interpretation of an occurrence than another. But this is more of an unconscious and autonomic response that is based in their genetic and environmental conditioning as well as how their brain has organized and expresses that conditioning.
2) Lies relate a person's consciously manipulated interpretation of an occurrence:
Here we see the liar using their intellegent interpretation of occurances. They use only those elements of thought that serve their conscious and immediate requirments, disregarding the actual, physical sequences and occurances they have experienced.
There is honesty to be found in both of these actions. They are both human methodologies of surviving either physically, socially or economically.
The honest truth is that both processes are a matter of survival.
However, when you factor in sociopathological reasoning, the discussion transforms and you'd have to move this thread to the psychology section.
1) Honesty is an expression of a person's actual interpretation of an occurrence:
Invariably and unconsciously a person will favour one interpretation of an occurrence than another. But this is more of an unconscious and autonomic response that is based in their genetic and environmental conditioning as well as how their brain has organized and expresses that conditioning.
2) Lies relate a person's consciously manipulated interpretation of an occurrence:
Here we see the liar using their intellegent interpretation of occurances. They use only those elements of thought that serve their conscious and immediate requirments, disregarding the actual, physical sequences and occurances they have experienced.
There is honesty to be found in both of these actions. They are both human methodologies of surviving either physically, socially or economically.
The honest truth is that both processes are a matter of survival.
However, when you factor in sociopathological reasoning, the discussion transforms and you'd have to move this thread to the psychology section.
- #45
Smurf
- 441
- 3
Ah, now that's a fallacy if ever I've seen one. Maybe you should start a topic about that next.Lisa! said:dextercioby,I'm really sorry for any woman who wants you to help.there's always worse and here you would be worse than his bf.
- #46
Lisa!
Gold Member
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. Maybe you should start a topic about that next.[/QUOTE]Smurf said:Ah, now that's a fallacy if ever I've seen one
Look in the mirror and you'll see one!
about "There's always worse"?