Is the concept of "wave function collapse" obsolete?

  • #51
vanhees71 said:
Well, of course, physicists try hard to lift "the curtains", but what if the overwhelming evidence tells you that you look for curtains, where none are to be seen?

There’s something funny going on with all this superposition states and wave function collapse stuff. We may not know what it is yet. But I am sure there is some intelligible explanation for why quantum mechanics behaves in the weird way that it does. Once we find out, I am sure we will smack our forehead and wonder why we didn’t think of it before. But I am sure that will also create even more questions, and that’s OK because that’s how Science usually works.

But the curtain may just be so big we don’t realize yet the whole thing is one big curtain.

But until we figure it out, I think we just have to be satisfied with Feynman’s approach of “shut up and calculate”.
 
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  • #52
DarMM said:
That will only, under a certain system-device-environment decomposition, give separation of components of the wave-function in the system-device subsystem. That's still not collapse. To even demonstrate it you have to trace out the environment which involves the Born rule.
We shall have to agree to disagree, since you haven't explained why it isn't collapse.
 
  • #53
Michael Price said:
We shall have to agree to disagree, since you haven't explained why it isn't collapse.
You said this:
Michael Price said:
All you need is the linear nature of the Hilbert space and thus of the Schrödinger equation, or whatever unitary dynamics you are using, and has nothing to do with interpretations and/or Born statistics.
This isn't true. You don't get the evolution separating into channels like this without the Born statistics. The evolution only separates into different branches within certain subsystems given the Born statistics.
 
  • #54
Demystifier said:
That's fine if one takes a perspective from a single branch of the wave function. But without MWI, it is not clear why should one take a perspective from a single branch of the wave function to begin with.
First, MWI doesn't come with a built-in perspective; everything is deduced.
Second, the way to deduce it is to consider the example where there is only one component or branch. Cleary the single branch with no companions has a perspective. In the more general case, where other elements or branches exist, each branch must have a unique perspective because the other branches, by linearity, do not affect it.
 
  • #55
Michael Price said:
because the other branches, by linearity, do not affect it
Not by linearity. By decoherence, which operates above a certain scale and requires the Born rule to derive.
 
  • #56
DarMM said:
Not by linearity. By decoherence, which operates above a certain scale and requires the Born rule to derive.
No, linearity. You are thinking of interference effects which I am not taking about.
 
  • #57
Michael Price said:
No, linearity. You are thinking of interference effects which I am not taking about.
If there is interference effects you can in no way consider collapse to have occurred. It wouldn't even qualify as "apparent collapse" in Many Worlds.
 
  • #58
To DarMM:
Okay, I see why we may be disagreeing . I am thinking of decoherence being when macrostates cease overlapping, which doesn't require the Born rule. Since decoherence defines branching, in my terminology, you don't need the Born rule to define branching. Perhaps you are thinking of branching into a mixture which requires a probability measure?
 
  • #59
DarMM said:
If there is interference effects you can in no way consider collapse to have occurred. It wouldn't even qualify as "apparent collapse" in Many Worlds.
But I am not thinking of interference effects. We agree on this?
 
  • #60
Michael Price said:
But I am not thinking of interference effects. We agree on this?
You might not be thinking of them, but they are very relevant to collapse. If there are interference effects you don't have collapse. Linearity alone will still have interference effects and thus even in MWI people in different branches wouldn't be able to consider the other branches to have separated and so you don't have collapse.

Michael Price said:
To DarMM:
Okay, I see why we may be disagreeing . I am thinking of decoherence being when macrostates cease overlapping, which doesn't require the Born rule.
It does. The induced state on macroscopic subsystems is formed via tracing and tracing is derived as the only way of projecting onto subsystems that preserves the Born statistics. See Nielsen and Chuang, tracing and the Born rule are connected and decoherence requires tracing.
 
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  • #61
DarMM said:
You might not be thinking of them, but they are very relevant to collapse. If there are interference effects you don't have collapse. Linearity alone will still have interference effects and thus even in MWI people in different branches wouldn't be able to consider the other branches to have separated and so you don't have collapse.It does. The induced state on macroscopic subsystems is formed via tracing and tracing is derived as the only way of projecting onto subsystems that preserves the Born statistics. See Nielsen and Chuang, tracing and the Born rule are connected and decoherence requires tracing.
Overlaps do not require the Born rule. I am out of here.
 
  • #62
DarMM said:
Collapse doesn't contradict this preparation based view. Ultimately you can consider collapse to be a relation between preparations which is different from the relations in a classical theory.

For example if one takes a preparation where some source (that part is unimportant for now) emits something in a ##|S_{z} = +\frac{1}{2}\rangle## state and then an ##S_{x}## measurement is performed with some device filtering out ##S_{x} = -\frac{1}{2}## cases.

In the classical case (ignoring that spin isn't classical) something like this would prepare a sub-ensemble of the ##S_{z} = +\frac{1}{2}## case, but in quantum mechanics this is not so. It must solely be considered a ##S_{x} = +\frac{1}{2}## preparation. That's all collapse is.
Where is the collapse? The key mistake is your assumption "ignoring that spin isn't classical". You have to forget about the classical assumption that observables take a determined value and completely get used to the thinking in terms of quantum theory, according to which it depends on the state the system is prepared in (or is observed to be in) whether any specific observable takes a determined value or not.

If you have prepared your particle's spin with determined ##S_z=1/2## value, this implies that ##S_x## does not take a determined value. In this case your spin state is the pure state ##|S_z=1/2 \rangle \langle S_z=1/2|##, which implies that the probability to find ##S_x=\pm 1/2## is 50% for each value.

If you now make a filter measurement of ##S_x## filtering out ##S_x=-1/2##, then you get indeed a subensemble, where ##S_x=-1/2## is determined, but this again implies that ##S_z## is indetermined now taking with 50% probability either of the two posible values ##S_x=\pm 1/2##.

Of course the filtering involves some interactions (e.g., using the Stern-Gerlach setup the particles are going in and adequately chosen magnetic field separating the praticles with the wanted spin values, leading to an entanglement between position and spin-component). Then looking you are simply looking at the subensemble with the wanted ##S_x=-1/2## values. This implies that ##S_z## is now indetermined.

Indeed, you cannot understand this in any classical way, but you have to think following the laws collected in QT!
 
  • #63
Sophrosyne said:
There’s something funny going on with all this superposition states and wave function collapse stuff. We may not know what it is yet. But I am sure there is some intelligible explanation for why quantum mechanics behaves in the weird way that it does. Once we find out, I am sure we will smack our forehead and wonder why we didn’t think of it before. But I am sure that will also create even more questions, and that’s OK because that’s how Science usually works.

But the curtain may just be so big we don’t realize yet the whole thing is one big curtain.

But until we figure it out, I think we just have to be satisfied with Feynman’s approach of “shut up and calculate”.
What do you think, don't we know? The success of QT in its minimal interpretation in describing what's objectively observed in nature proves this claim wrong. We indeed do know very well, how to apply QT to real-world phenomena. Otherwise it couldn't be such a successful theory.

"Collapse" is just a sloppy abbreviating word for the simple fact that in preparing a particle such that some given observable takes a determined (or pretty well determined) value we just select those we want. This can be a complicated technical task, but it's nothing mysterios. The devices created for such state preparations can be very complex (e.g., the entire LHC to prepare (bunches of) protons and heavy ions at a given high and well-determined momentum), but it's construction is just possible by making use the known natural laws as formally described by QT in approximation sufficient for the task of construction (in the case of accelerator physics most can be understood using the classical motion of charged particles in electromagnetic fields or, at higher space charges, in terms of continuum mechanics to describe the bunches).

One must not forget that behind all the abstract math of Hilbert spaces and all that there's the real world and the manipulations and observations of experimentalists, which also make up the interpretation of QT, and that's the relevant part of the interpretation, and that's the minimal statistical interpretation. Maybe that doesn't suit our prejudices due to our intuition, which is built from the first day of our experiencing the world in terms of macroscopic many-body systems which don't show much quantum effects (though the very fact that there's a stable macroscopic world around is already is only understandable with QT rather than classical physics).
 
  • #64
vanhees71 said:
The success of QT in its minimal interpretation in describing what's objectively observed in nature proves this claim wrong. We indeed do know very well, how to apply QT to real-world phenomena. Otherwise it couldn't be such a successful theory.
We know very well how to apply QT to the statistics of real-world phenomena, averaged over many microscopic quantum systems. This fully explains its successes.

But many want to know more, in the era where one can do high precision experiments with single microscopic quantum systems.

Nothing in either theory or practice forbids that this is possible. That it is impossible is just your (and some others') conviction, not more.
vanhees71 said:
"Collapse" is just a sloppy abbreviating word for the simple fact that in preparing a particle such that some given observable takes a determined (or pretty well determined) value we just select those we want.
Please give a simple derivation, based on first principles without using collapse, why blocking one of the two beams in a Stern-Gerlach experiment prepares a state with definite spin. This is not possible without making ad hoc assumptions that are equivalent to assuming collapse!
 
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  • #65
Michael Price said:
Overlaps do not require the Born rule. I am out of here.
I never said overlaps require the Born Rule, they obviously don't. Can you show how what you are talking about leads to collapse. It's strange to be arguing for textbook stuff here. The points I'm making are referenced by Zurek:
Zurek, W. (2010). Quantum Jumps, Born’s Rule, and Objective Reality. In: S. Saunders et al, ed., Many Worlds? Everett, Quantum Theory, and Reality, 1st ed. Oxford University Press, pp. 409-432.
 
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  • #66
vanhees71 said:
The key mistake is your assumption "ignoring that spin isn't classical". You have to forget about the classical assumption that observables take a determined value and completely get used to the thinking in terms of quantum theory, according to which it depends on the state the system is prepared in (or is observed to be in) whether any specific observable takes a determined value or not
That's not an assumption, spin isn't classical. My point was the difference between QM and Classical preparations, the "spin isn't classical" just referred to the fact that the observable I was using doesn't occur in classical mechanics.

As for the rest of your post, I know all the details of the quantum formalism, the point is that one's measurement of ##S_x## does not constitute a filtered subensemble of the ##S_z## case you've already prepared. That's all collapse is.

As @A. Neumaier said can you show how measuring ##S_x## on a collection of particles with ##S_z = +\frac{1}{2}## works out without using collapse.
 
  • #67
I see. So it's sounding to me like it's not WRONG to keep talking about wave function collapse to describe what looks to me to be a very real phenomenon. Thank you.
 
  • #68
vanhees71 said:
What do you think, don't we know? The success of QT in its minimal interpretation in describing what's objectively observed in nature proves this claim wrong. We indeed do know very well, how to apply QT to real-world phenomena. Otherwise it couldn't be such a successful theory.

"Collapse" is just a sloppy abbreviating word for the simple fact that in preparing a particle such that some given observable takes a determined (or pretty well determined) value we just select those we want. This can be a complicated technical task, but it's nothing mysterios. The devices created for such state preparations can be very complex (e.g., the entire LHC to prepare (bunches of) protons and heavy ions at a given high and well-determined momentum), but it's construction is just possible by making use the known natural laws as formally described by QT in approximation sufficient for the task of construction (in the case of accelerator physics most can be understood using the classical motion of charged particles in electromagnetic fields or, at higher space charges, in terms of continuum mechanics to describe the bunches).

One must not forget that behind all the abstract math of Hilbert spaces and all that there's the real world and the manipulations and observations of experimentalists, which also make up the interpretation of QT, and that's the relevant part of the interpretation, and that's the minimal statistical interpretation. Maybe that doesn't suit our prejudices due to our intuition, which is built from the first day of our experiencing the world in terms of macroscopic many-body systems which don't show much quantum effects (though the very fact that there's a stable macroscopic world around is already is only understandable with QT rather than classical physics).

This is a little like a 19th century chemist saying that we know that mixing acids and bases creates heat. What else is there to know and why keep asking questions on the mechanism?

But that’s just an observation, not a mechanistic explanation. If that’s all we have, then fine, it’s all we got and we have to be satisfied with it. “Shut up and calculate”, as Feynman said. But today we have more detailed explanations for that observation, based on energy levels of electrons and atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics of the Schrödinger equation to explain the heat released with mixing acids and bases- stuff the 19th century chemist never even dreamed of.

The mechanism of the wave-particle duality and wave function collapse is also similarly just an empirical observation- and one which we have learned to quantify in our equations. But that’s not a mechanistic explanation. It’s just an observation.

What I think people realize is that there is some weird stuff happening under the hood here that we don’t understand. We will accept the observation for what it is right now because we can’t do any better. But this doesn’t strike me As some fundamental, irreducible level of understanding to just be accepted.

We may never be able to figure it out. Or it may be centuries before we do. But I think theoretically at least, there is some explanation. There is always a next level of “why” or “how”. It’s turtles all the way down.
 
  • #69
A. Neumaier said:
We know very well how to apply QT to the statistics of real-world phenomena, averaged over many microscopic quantum systems. This fully explains its successes.

But many want to know more, in the era where one can do high precision experiments with single microscopic quantum systems.

Nothing in either theory or practice forbids that this is possible. That it is impossible is just your (and some others') conviction, not more.

Please give a simple derivation, based on first principles without using collapse, why blocking one of the two beams in a Stern-Gerlach experiment prepares a state with definite spin. This is not possible without making ad hoc assumptions that are equivalent to assuming collapse!
First of all, what do you think comes out of the high-precision experiment with single microscopic quantum systems other than the predicted statistics for measurement outcomes? If there where something else observed, QT were obsolete and we'd have to look for a better theory. Do you have single example (a real experiment of course not some philosophical pseudoproblem)?

Then, what derivation do you need for the SG experiment? After a silver atom is deflected by the magnetic field to one of two clearly separated directions (that must be ensured of course by the appropriate choice of the magnetic field) you know its spin state being in one of the two pure states since through the SG apparatus position and the spin component in the direction of the magnetic field (to be more precise the large homogeneous part of the magnetic field). Now you just use the silver atoms in the spin state you want, i.e., being at the corresponding "right place" and block the silber atoms at the other place. A simple piece of matter will do that for you easily. That the magnetic field has the appropriate state-preparing features, follows from a quite simple calculation. I am still in the process of writing this up.

There's nothing more to derive. You just do the experiment ;-)).
 
  • #70
vanhees71 said:
There's nothing more to derive. You just do the experiment
Yes, but what about the experiment where you take particles of definite ##S_z## and then perform an ##S_x## measurement? Afterward they've gone from a state with definite ##S_z## to one of definite ##S_x## in a way that cannot be described by unitary evolution.
 
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  • #71
vanhees71 said:
what do you think comes out of the high-precision experiment with single microscopic quantum systems other than the predicted statistics for measurement outcomes? If there where something else observed, QT were obsolete and we'd have to look for a better theory. Do you have single example (a real experiment of course not some philosophical pseudoproblem)?
The same single system viewed over an extended time, hence having a single trajectory, not a collection of identically prepared particles measured independently, as the statistical intepretation in their traditional form assumes. Single particles visibly jumps (change in very short time) between stationary states.

We discussed this in two other threads here and here, and your answer was unsatisfactory, as always in such cases, replacing a detailed analysis by lots of generalities.
 
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  • #72
vanhees71 said:
what derivation do you need for the SG experiment? After a silver atom is deflected by the magnetic field to one of two clearly separated directions (that must be ensured of course by the appropriate choice of the magnetic field) you know its spin state being in one of the two pure states
That's precisely the question: How do you know that? You cannot know it from the unitary evolution, and Born's rule doesn't apply yet since the unitary transformation due to the magnetic field is not yet a measurement (as it is in principle reversible). The only way to know it is to invoke the collapse!
 
  • #73
DarMM said:
Yes, but what about the experiment where you take particles of definite ##S_z## and then perform an ##S_x## measurement? Afterward they've gone from a state with definite ##S_z## to one of definite ##S_x## in a way that cannot be described by unitary evolution.
Again there's no problem. You just use a magnetic field with its large homogeneous part in ##x## direction. Then a silver-atom prepared to have ##S_z=1/2## is randomly deflected (with probability 50%) in the one or the other direction. Now the position of the particle is entangled with ##S_x## rather than with ##S_z##, and you have prepared a particle with ##S_x=-1/2## or ##S_x=+1/2##, depending of the direction it went when running through the ##\text{SG}_x## magnet. You cannot decide beforehand, which value of ##S_z## you get, you only know that in about half the cases you get ##S_x=+1/2## and the other half of the cases you get ##S_x=-1/2##, but after the particle has run through the magnet, it's clear which of the two possible ##S_x## values it has.

You can understand this intuitively nearly by thinking in classical terms (being a bit sloppy in thinking about spin, which is not a classical observable to begin with): If you have the particle prepared in a ##S_z=1/2## eigenstate, the ##S_x## and ##S_y## components are indetermined. This implies that the magnetic moment vector has a determined ##\mu_z## component but indetermined ##\mu_x## and ##\mu_y## components. If the particle now enters an inhomogeneous magnetic field with a large homogeneous part in ##x##-direction, the magnetic moment starts to precess rapidly around the ##x## direction. In moving through the magnetic field, which must also have some inhomogeneous part, the particle is deflected according to the force ##\vec{F}=-\vec{\nabla} (\vec{\mu} \cdot \vec{B})##. Now the ##\mu_y## and ##\mu_z## components are rapidly oscillating since ##\vec{\mu}## rapidly precesses around the ##x## direction (with the Larmor frequency ##\omega=g e B/(2m) \simeq g e B_0/(2m)## (for a silver atom ##g=g_{\text{electron}} \simeq 2##). Thus it is a good approximation to assume that the deflection is given by ##\vec{F} \simeq -\vec{\nabla} (\mu_x B_x)##. The other components ##\mu_y B_y## and ##\mu_z B_z## can be assumed tobe so rapidly oscillating that they average out to 0 over the typical much longer time scales the silver atom moves inside the magnet. Let the magnet be along the ##y## axis and the particle's momentum well peaked around the ##y## axis too. Then we can assume that in the time it's inside the magnet it's not too far refleced from the ##y## axis, and we can approximate the ##B## field as
$$\vec{B}=(B_0 + \beta x)\vec{e}_x -\beta y \vec{e}_y.$$
Note that the last term must be there, because we need to fulfill ##\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{B}=0##. Nevertheless since we can approximate due to the above argument
$$\vec{F} \simeq -\vec{\nabla} (\mu_x B_x)=-\mu_x \beta \vec{e}_x.$$
The particle gets deflected in ##x## direction in two opposite directions depending on the two possible signs ##\mu_x## can take.

You can make this fully quantum by reading everywhere operators instead of usual c-numbers and use time-dependent perturbation theory with
$$\hat{H}_0=\frac{\vec{p}^2}{2m} + \hat{\mu}_x (B_0+\beta \hat{x}), \quad \hat{H}_1=-\hat{\mu}_y \beta \hat{y}.$$
Then you can calculate the time evolution of a Pauli wave function, initially given as an apprpriate Gaussian wave packet with only a component referring to ##\sigma_z=+1/2##. The time evolution with ##\hat{H}_0## gives a two-bump wave packet, where particles in one bump have ##\sigma_x=+1/2## and ##\sigma_x=-1/2##. Then you can use first-order time-dependent perturbation theory to show that the correction due to the perturbation ##\hat{H}_1## is indeed small due to the rapid Larmor oscillation of the ##\mu_y##. Thus you get (nearly) perfect entanglement between ##\sigma_x## and the particle's position coordinate ##x##, i.e., blocking one of the two partial beams leads to a (nearly perfect) beam of particles with ##\sigma_x=+1/2##.
 
  • #74
vanhees71 said:
Then a silver-atom prepared to have S_z=1/2 is randomly deflected (with probability 50%) in the one or the other direction.
No, since the magnetic field defines a unitary dynamics, it evolves into a superposition of both directions, not into the classical mixture you claim!
 
  • #75
DarMM said:
Afterward they've gone from a state with definite ##S_z## to one of definite ##S_x## in a way that cannot be described by unitary evolution.

You can describe the process of going through the S-G magnet by unitary evolution; it just can't be a unitary evolution of the spin state alone, because the spin degree of freedom alone doesn't have a definite state. It's entangled with the momentum degree of freedom; unitary evolution under the applicable Hamiltonian for the S-G device is what entangles them.

If your experiment also has a detector screen that detects each output beam from the S-G device, then (on a collapse interpretation) the wave function will collapse into a state of definite ##S_x##. But the S-G device by itself (the magnetic field) doesn't collapse anything; it just entangles spin and momentum.
 
  • #76
DarMM said:
I never said overlaps require the Born Rule, they obviously don't.
post #60 where you said "It does.". I really can't be bothered to debate when someone claims black is white and then denies making the claim.
 
  • #77
PeterDonis said:
But the S-G device by itself (the magnetic field) doesn't collapse anything; it just entangles spin and momentum.
That's why I mentioned doing the ##S_x## measurement.
 
  • #78
Michael Price said:
post #60 where you said "It does.". I really can't be bothered to debate when someone claims black is white and then denies making the claim.
"Ceasing to overlap" requires the Born rule, the overlaps themselves do not.

In #61 you said "Overlaps do not require the Born rule". I agree and never said the overlaps require the Born rule.

However I did say in #60 that removing the overlaps requires the Born rule and I stand by that claim as it is true in any treatment of decoherence you'll find in textbooks.
 
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  • #79
PeterDonis said:
It's entangled with the momentum degree of freedom; unitary evolution under the applicable Hamiltonian for the S-G device is what entangles them.
...
But the S-G device by itself (the magnetic field) doesn't collapse anything; it just entangles spin and momentum.
This is true is you examine any measurement closely - is just two systems becoming correlated (or entangled, if you prefer), without any collapse.
 
  • #80
Michael Price said:
Overlaps do not require the Born rule. I am out of here.
Since I think this was a typo, i.e. you meant to say "removing overlaps does not require the Born rule" can you explain how you derive overlaps dying off without the Born rule?
 
  • #81
DarMM said:
That's why I mentioned doing the ##S_x## measurement.

But what you are calling "the ##S_x## measurement" is not actually measuring spin, it's measuring position: the position on the detector where the electron hits after going through the S-G magnet. The only way this tells you anything about spin at all is by a chain of inference: to hit that position on the detector, the electron must have had momentum in a particular direction (the direction from the magnet to that point on the detector), and since its momentum was entangled with its ##x## spin, its ##x## spin must have been up (or down).

In other words, the collapse occurs at the detector, not at the S-G magnet, and what exactly is collapsing will depend on your interpretation.
 
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  • #82
Michael Price said:
This is true is you examine any measurement closely - is just two systems becoming correlated (or entangled, if you prefer), without any collapse.

Not if "measurement" means something that has macroscopic, irreversible effects. In my response to @DarMM just now, I pointed out that the "measurement" in what is often referred to as a "spin measurement" is actually a measurement of position. The entanglement process that justifies (at least according to an appropriate interpretation) calling this a "spin" measurement happens before the measurement--i.e., before a visible spot is made on the detector screen--not during it. The making of the spot on the detector screen is the macroscopic, irreversible process; the entanglement of the spin and momentum degrees of freedom of the electron in the S-G magnetic field is not.
 
  • #83
PeterDonis said:
In other words, the collapse occurs at the detector, not at the S-G magnet, and what exactly is collapsing will depend on your interpretation.
Of course and I agree that often measurements occur through an ancilla and thus are often POVMs. How does this relate to the point with @vanhees71 , i.e. the relations between an ##S_x## and ##S_z## preparation constituting collapse. Does the fact that this often occurs via an ancilla affect anything substantial?
 
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  • #84
DarMM said:
How does this relate to the point with @vanhees71 , i.e. the relations between an ##S_x## and ##S_z## preparation constituting collapse.

I would say that, in the scenario @vanhees71 described in post #69, the "collapse" comes in when one of the output beams of the S-G magnet is blocked. It doesn't matter what you do with the other beam after that.

(Note that in the case you mention of successive S-G magnets oriented ##z## and then ##x##, in order to say the output of the second is "a state of definite ##x## spin", you have to block one of the output beams there as well, or else use a detector screen to make the output beams make bright spots that are macroscopically observable. But that's not what makes the first ##S_z## preparation collapse; blocking one of the ##z## output beams does that.)
 
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  • #85
PeterDonis said:
I would say that, in the scenario @vanhees71 described in post #69, the "collapse" comes in when one of the output beams of the S-G magnet is blocked. It doesn't matter what you do with the other beam after that.

(Note that in the case you mention of successive S-G magnets oriented ##z## and then ##x##, in order to say the output of the second is "a state of definite ##x## spin", you have to block one of the output beams there as well, or else use a detector screen to make the output beams make bright spots that are macroscopically observable. But that's not what makes the first ##S_z## preparation collapse; blocking one of the ##z## output beams does that.)
I agree with all this of course. I was not so much concerned with how exactly the ##S_x## and ##S_z## measurements are done but that the ##S_x## preparation cannot be considered a sub-ensemble (in the probability theory sense) of the ##S_z## preparation it originates from and hence the non-filtering nature of the experiment is what is essentially collapse.
 
  • #86
PeterDonis said:
In other words, the collapse occurs at the detector, not at the S-G magnet, and what exactly is collapsing will depend on your interpretation.
I'm a bit confused after thinking about his if you don't mind, what is the exact relation to the discussion here? I get that really spin measurements occur via an ancilla and that "collapse" is invoked when one has some macroscopic fact, but I'm unsure of how it relates to our discussion. What's the importance of the ancilla part?

So a ##S_x## filtered state doesn't seem to be a subensemble of a previous ##S_z## filtering that it originated from. Is this incorrect due to the use of the ancilla in some way?
 
  • #87
DarMM said:
a ##S_x## filtered state doesn't seem to be a subensemble of a previous ##S_z## filtering that it originated from

I'm not sure I see why not. The ##S_x## filtering just picks out a subset of the particles that come through the ##S_z## filter. How is that not a subensemble?
 
  • #88
PeterDonis said:
Not if "measurement" means something that has macroscopic, irreversible effects. In my response to @DarMM just now, I pointed out that the "measurement" in what is often referred to as a "spin measurement" is actually a measurement of position. The entanglement process that justifies (at least according to an appropriate interpretation) calling this a "spin" measurement happens before the measurement--i.e., before a visible spot is made on the detector screen--not during it. The making of the spot on the detector screen is the macroscopic, irreversible process; the entanglement of the spin and momentum degrees of freedom of the electron in the S-G magnetic field is not.
Yes, I agree, it the production of the spot in the screen that makes the measurement irreversible and permanent. Reversible measurements are, in principle, possible, and it is easy to forget this.
 
  • #89
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure I see why not. The ##S_x## filtering just picks out a subset of the particles that come through the ##S_z## filter. How is that not a subensemble?
In the probability theoretic sense of an ensemble for the spin random variables. They are of course a subset of the particles you sent through.
 
  • #90
DarMM said:
In the probability theoretic sense of an ensemble for the spin random variables.

I'm still not sure I understand. Is this just due to the fact that the ##S_z## and ##S_x## observables don't commute?
 
  • #91
Yes basically, so if you detect a particle to be in a spin state (however you do it) and then to be in a spin state associated with another direction it has "jumped states" in a way not described by unitary evolution.

In the classical probabilistic case you wouldn't have this because you could just assume the subsequent measurements reduce the support of the probability distribution. It's not a jump to another ensemble, it's just a subensemble.

In a Bayesian view collapse is sort of Bayesian updating + necessary information loss.

So my point to vanhees is that we seem to need collapse for sequences of measurements, because quantum measurements are not just filtrations as in the classical probabilistic case.

You introduced the point of the momentum ancilla into this, I'm just not sure of its purpose. It's something to do with the detector?
 
  • #92
DarMM said:
You introduced the point of the momentum ancilla into this, I'm just not sure of its purpose. It's something to do with the detector?

It's more just to emphasize that describing the process as "detecting a particle to be in a spin state" requires interpretation. In Bohmian mechanics, for example, you aren't doing that; you're just detecting the particle's position, and which output beam of a S-G magnet the particle is in is purely due to its position, not its spin ("spin" doesn't really exist in Bohmian mechanics).
 
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  • #93
PeterDonis said:
It's more just to emphasize that describing the process as "detecting a particle to be in a spin state" requires interpretation. In Bohmian mechanics, for example, you aren't doing that; you're just detecting the particle's position, and which output beam of a S-G magnet the particle is in is purely due to its position, not its spin ("spin" doesn't really exist in Bohmian mechanics).
Ah sorry I see now. Indeed my language should have been more neutral. What would be the correct phrasing do you think?

Instead of saying "the particle has gone from one state to another" the most neutral statement would be "our probability assignments have gone from one form to another"
 
  • #94
DarMM said:
Instead of saying "the particle has gone from one state to another" the most neutral statement would be "our probability assignments have gone from one form to another"

That phrasing makes "collapse" a non-problem, since there is no requirement that our probability assignments must obey unitary evolution.
 
  • #95
What's an interpretation neutral phrasing then?

Our assignments outside of measurements have to obey unitary evolution I thought due to that being an automorphism of the observable algebra. If you read nothing more into the formalism than probability assignments for macroscopic outcomes (and I thought all interps allow you to do this, their common core would be this effective use of the formalism) it seems to me the above is what you would say.
 
  • #96
DarMM said:
What's an interpretation neutral phrasing then?

The only really neutral phrasing is to just describe the macroscopic observation ("a spot was observed at such-and-such point on the detector screen") and leave it at that.
 
  • #97
PeterDonis said:
The only really neutral phrasing is to just describe the macroscopic observation ("a spot was observed at such-and-such point on the detector screen") and leave it at that.
That's not a neutral phrasing of the quantum formalism though. It's not just interpretation of QM neutral it's theory neutral.
 
  • #98
DarMM said:
That's not a neutral phrasing of the quantum formalism though.

I would say a neutral phrasing of the quantum formalism is to just write down the equations and leave it at that.
 
  • #99
PeterDonis said:
I would say a neutral phrasing of the quantum formalism is to just write down the equations and leave it at that.
But you have to apply them to an experiment. You can't just write them down, that seems to be the opposite extreme. That's why I think a fairly neutral statement is to say that the probabilities for future macroscopic effects are updated after a seeing a specific macroscopic effect in a way described by state collapse. All the interpretations would agree on that pragmatic use, they'd disagree on what else might be going on and what the meanings of terms are beyond their pure pragmatics.
 
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  • #100
DarMM said:
the probabilities for future macroscopic effects are updated after a seeing a specific macroscopic effect in a way described by state collapse

Yes, but as I said, this makes "collapse" a non-problem because updating probabilities does not require anything to have "actually happened" to the system. (Perhaps instead of "non-problem" it could be termed an "interpretation-dependent problem", and one interpretation is simply that nothing "actually happens" during collapse, it's just that we update the probabilities we'll use for future predictions.)
 
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