Is the Curl of a Cross Product Affected by Directional Nabla?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the vector identity for the curl of a cross product involving the directional nabla operator. Participants explore the implications of this identity and the nuances of vector calculus operations, particularly in the context of vector operators.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a vector identity for the curl of a cross product and questions the validity of a simplification involving the divergence of vectors.
  • Another participant provides a component-wise breakdown to illustrate that the expressions for divergence and directional derivatives are not equivalent when one is a vector operator.
  • A third participant acknowledges the previous analysis and emphasizes the importance of careful manipulation of notation when dealing with operators.
  • A fourth participant suggests that nabla acts only to the right and proposes the use of a bidirectional nabla to validate more vector identities, drawing a parallel to a single-variable equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of the vector identity or the treatment of the nabla operator. Multiple competing views remain regarding the proper handling of vector operators in this context.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the assumptions about vector operations and the specific conditions under which certain identities hold. The nuances of operator manipulation are emphasized, indicating a need for careful analysis.

PhilDSP
Messages
643
Reaction score
15
I have a number of books which give a vector identity equation for the curl of a cross product thus:

[tex]\nabla \times \left(a \times b \right) = a \left( \nabla \cdot b \right) + \left( b \cdot \nabla \right) a - b \left( \nabla \cdot a \right) - \left( a \cdot \nabla \right) b[/tex]

But doesn't

[tex]b \left( \nabla \cdot a \right) = \left( a \cdot \nabla \right) b[/tex]

If that is true then

[tex]\nabla \times \left(a \times b \right) = 2a \left( b \cdot \nabla \right) - 2b \left( a \cdot \nabla \right)[/tex]

Or is there something I'm missing? (Since nabla is an operator the last equation as it's written might only make sense if it was multiplied by a vector)
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
It's easiest to see by writing it out in components:
[tex][(\nabla \cdot a) b]_i = (\partial_x a_x + \partial_y a_y + \partial_z a_z) b_i = (\partial_x a_x) b_i + (\partial_y a_y) b_i + (\partial_z a_z) b_i[/tex]
whereas
[tex][(a \cdot \nabla) b]_i = (a_x \partial_x + a_y \partial_y + a_z \partial_z) b_i = (\partial_x b_i) a_x + (\partial_y b_i) a_y + (\partial_z b_i) a_z[/tex]
and clearly these are not the same.

So while [itex]a \cdot b = b \cdot a[/itex] holds when a and b are really vectors, it is not necessarily true when one of them is a vector operator. This is one of the cases where the convenience of considering [itex]\nabla[/itex] as a vector satisfying all the rules for vectors does not apply.
 
Thanks CompuChip. As I was mulling it over in afterthought I felt that I should have done just what you did. The notation seems deceptive so there is no substitute for doing the analysis as you have when any kind of operator is involved.
 
Nabla acts only to the right. Often it helps in these kind of manipulations to use a bidirectional nabla so that more vector identities are valid. What you have done is similar to the single variable equation
uDv=vDu
which is obviously does not hold in general, but would be true if D were bidirectional.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K