Is the de Broglie wavelenght incongruent with particle in a box calculation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the correspondence principle in quantum mechanics, particularly in relation to the particle in a box model and de Broglie wavelength calculations for massive objects. Participants explore the apparent discrepancies in energy calculations and the implications for macroscopic systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Mark expresses confusion regarding the small energy calculated for a massive object in the particle in a box model compared to the high frequency and energy implied by the de Broglie wavelength.
  • One participant explains that the energy levels in the particle in a box become very close together for macroscopic objects, leading to an appearance of continuity in energy levels.
  • Another participant suggests that for macroscopic boxes, the energy levels are so close that the energy appears continuous, aligning with classical mechanics.
  • There is a discussion about substituting de Broglie's formula into the energy equations and how this relates to the energy levels of the particle in a box.
  • Mark notes a surprise in the relationship between mass and energy in the equations, questioning why energy appears to decrease with mass in one context while increasing in another.
  • A later reply proposes that the typical quantum number n increases with mass, suggesting a proportional relationship between energy and mass in quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the implications of energy calculations for massive objects, with some agreeing on the continuity of energy levels while others raise questions about the relationships between mass, energy, and quantum numbers. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on definitions and assumptions related to energy levels and the behavior of macroscopic objects in quantum mechanics. There are unresolved mathematical steps and conditions that affect the interpretations of the equations discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in quantum mechanics, particularly those exploring the implications of the particle in a box model and de Broglie wavelength concepts for macroscopic systems.

a dull boy
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Dear Physics Forum,
I think I am confused in applying the correspondence principle in QM, using the particle in a box and de Broglie wavelength calculations for massive (macroscopic) objects.

Why is the calculated energy of a massive object so small in the particle in a box

E = h2/8mL2

but when the de Broglie wavelength of a massive object is calculated,

λ = h/p

it is very small, meaning its frequency and so energy are high?

And if the energy level spacing is always n2, why is it said that the spacing becomes continuous, not discrete, for massive objects?

Thanks for your help, Mark
 
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The energy of the particle in a box is calculated by plugging in the wavefunction of the particle into the Schrödinger Equation. Since the potential energy inside the "box" is zero, the Schrödinger equation takes the form [tex]\frac {d^{2} \psi} {dx^{2}} + \frac {8 \pi m} {h^{2}} E \psi = 0[/tex] The wavefunction of the particle is given by [tex]\psi = \sqrt{\frac{2}{L}} + sin \left ( \frac{n \pi x}{a} \right )[/tex] Substituting this into 1 gives you the equation for the energy levels of the particle that you posted (except that there should be an n2 next to h2).

When people say that it becomes continuous, it means that the difference in energy levels is so small that it appears to be continuous, as in classical mechanics.
 
If you combine your first post in a different way, you answer your own questions:

For macroscopic objects in macroscopic boxes, the energy levels are very close to each other. Therefore, any "macroscopic energy" is at very high n, where the relative distance between the levels is really small (relative distance of n^2 and (n+1)^2 is ~2/n and therefore falling for large n).
As the energy is large, the De-Broglie wavelength is very small and smaller than usual box sizes.
 
a dull boy said:
E = h2/8mL2

This is for the ground state, n = 1. For any n you have

E = n2h2/8mL2

For a non-relativistic particle with no potential energy (only kinetic energy), E = p2/2m (which you can verify from the usual classical formulas for momentum and kinetic energy).

1. Use de Broglie's formula λ = h/p to substitute for p and get a formula that gives E in terms of λ.

2. Recall that for the particle in a box, the length of the box is an integer multiple of half the wavelength: L = nλ/2. Use this to substitute for λ in the equation you found in step 1. What do you get for E?
 
Thanks very much for the help, I see the point that the relative spacing decreases with n, MarkM. I also did the substitutions you suggested jtbell, and did recreate the particle in the box equation from E = p2/2m. I guess that surprised me, as the energy in E= p2/2m increases with mass, but in E=n2h2/8mL2 the energy appears to decrease with mass. The math works out, but why (I apologize for not using the squared superscript properly, but nonetheless)? Can you help?

Thanks very much, Mark
 
The typical n increases with the mass. Write n as something like n=c*m, and you get E proportional to m for the quantum-mechanical treatment, too.
 

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