Is the Linear Ehrenfest Paradox Accurate for Circular Motion?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the linear Ehrenfest paradox and its potential extension to circular motion. Participants explore the implications of relativistic effects on a train moving in a rectangular track and consider how these concepts might apply to circular motion, particularly in relation to simultaneity and length contraction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a linear version of the Ehrenfest paradox involving a train of proper length 100 traveling at 0.6c, discussing its length in different frames of reference.
  • Another participant suggests that circular motion could simplify the analysis by eliminating discontinuities at corners and allowing a common rest frame for the entire train.
  • Some participants reference previous discussions on the circular barn/pole problem, indicating ongoing debates about simultaneity and measurements from different frames.
  • A participant argues that a single rest frame for the circumference of a rotating disk is not possible due to the lack of a common simultaneity surface among points on the disk.
  • There are differing views on whether a disk-riding observer measures the circumference as length contracted compared to a stationary observer, with references to Einstein's perspective and other literature.
  • One participant emphasizes the complexity behind the assertion that the entire train is within the perimeter at all times, suggesting that precise mathematical analysis is necessary to clarify the situation.
  • Another participant proposes using specific event coordinates and Lorentz transformations to analyze the scenario more rigorously.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of the Ehrenfest paradox and the nature of measurements in different frames. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the accuracy of the linear model or its extension to circular motion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of the current analysis, including the dependence on definitions of simultaneity and the complexity of relativistic effects in different frames. There is an acknowledgment that the simple statements made may obscure deeper complexities.

  • #31
JVNY said:
if lightning later strikes again simultaneously in S at the left side of the rectangle and the right side of the rectangle, the result will again be the same

Yes, but the strikes will be at different x coordinates in frame S, because the rectangle is moving in S.

JVNY said:
the entire train will have 64 length in S, being 32 on side A (same as that train segment's proper length), and 32 on side B (contracted from a proper length of 68).

I think this way of putting it could be misleading. In S, the rectangle is moving to the left at 0.6c; one segment of the train is at rest; the other segment of the train is moving to the left at 0.88c. And which points on the train are the dividing points between the two segments changes from instant to instant in frame S. You can certainly set up lightning strikes at the two events which mark the dividing points on the train at a given instant in frame S, and we can always pick an observer on the train who is in the right location to be at rest in frame S and equidistant from the two strikes, so they both reach him at the same event and fulfill the Einstein simultaneity criterion. But to call this a measurement of the "length" of anything implies that the "thing" whose length is being measured does not change from instant to instant, whereas in fact it does.

JVNY said:
Do you agree or disagree that the train always has length 64 in S?

I agree that the actual physical observables are as you have stated them. I'm not sure I agree that calling this a measurement of "the length of the train" is a good way of describing what is going on in ordinary language. Fortunately, however, we don't need to use that ordinary language; all observables and all physical predictions can be made without ever having to decide whether your choice of language here is good or bad. So I don't have to agree or disagree with you on this point because it's not a question of physics, it's a question of ordinary language terminology.
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
I agree that the actual physical observables are as you have stated them.

OK, thanks.

A.T. said:
If you instead consider a track across a whole closed cylindrical universe, you don't have any corners.

A.T., how is the cylindrical scenario modeled? Does it yield the same physical observables?
 
  • #33
JVNY said:
A.T., how is the cylindrical scenario modeled? Does it yield the same physical observables?
If you google "twin paradox in closed universe", you should find some related analysis. Instead of two inertial twins you would have two large inertial objects (tracks & train) spanning the entire universe.
 
  • #34
Thanks.
 

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