Is the Linear Ehrenfest Paradox Accurate for Circular Motion?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the application of the Ehrenfest paradox to both linear and circular motion, specifically analyzing a train of proper length 100 traveling at 0.6c around a rectangular track. The calculations reveal that while the train fits within the track in both the ground frame and the observer's frame on the train, the perceived lengths differ due to relativistic effects. The observer on the train measures the track's perimeter as 64, while the train maintains its proper length of 100. This leads to a complex understanding of simultaneity and length contraction in different reference frames, highlighting the challenges in defining a single rest frame for a rotating disk.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of special relativity concepts, including length contraction and simultaneity.
  • Familiarity with Lorentz transformations and their application in different inertial frames.
  • Knowledge of the Ehrenfest paradox and its implications in relativistic physics.
  • Basic grasp of Einstein's velocity addition formula and its relevance in relativistic scenarios.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the implications of the Ehrenfest paradox in various reference frames.
  • Explore Lorentz transformations in detail to understand their application in different scenarios.
  • Investigate the concept of simultaneity in special relativity and its effects on measurements.
  • Examine the circular barn/pole paradox and its relationship to the linear Ehrenfest paradox.
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of relativity, and anyone interested in the complexities of motion in relativistic frameworks, particularly those exploring the nuances of simultaneity and length contraction in different inertial frames.

  • #31
JVNY said:
if lightning later strikes again simultaneously in S at the left side of the rectangle and the right side of the rectangle, the result will again be the same

Yes, but the strikes will be at different x coordinates in frame S, because the rectangle is moving in S.

JVNY said:
the entire train will have 64 length in S, being 32 on side A (same as that train segment's proper length), and 32 on side B (contracted from a proper length of 68).

I think this way of putting it could be misleading. In S, the rectangle is moving to the left at 0.6c; one segment of the train is at rest; the other segment of the train is moving to the left at 0.88c. And which points on the train are the dividing points between the two segments changes from instant to instant in frame S. You can certainly set up lightning strikes at the two events which mark the dividing points on the train at a given instant in frame S, and we can always pick an observer on the train who is in the right location to be at rest in frame S and equidistant from the two strikes, so they both reach him at the same event and fulfill the Einstein simultaneity criterion. But to call this a measurement of the "length" of anything implies that the "thing" whose length is being measured does not change from instant to instant, whereas in fact it does.

JVNY said:
Do you agree or disagree that the train always has length 64 in S?

I agree that the actual physical observables are as you have stated them. I'm not sure I agree that calling this a measurement of "the length of the train" is a good way of describing what is going on in ordinary language. Fortunately, however, we don't need to use that ordinary language; all observables and all physical predictions can be made without ever having to decide whether your choice of language here is good or bad. So I don't have to agree or disagree with you on this point because it's not a question of physics, it's a question of ordinary language terminology.
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
I agree that the actual physical observables are as you have stated them.

OK, thanks.

A.T. said:
If you instead consider a track across a whole closed cylindrical universe, you don't have any corners.

A.T., how is the cylindrical scenario modeled? Does it yield the same physical observables?
 
  • #33
JVNY said:
A.T., how is the cylindrical scenario modeled? Does it yield the same physical observables?
If you google "twin paradox in closed universe", you should find some related analysis. Instead of two inertial twins you would have two large inertial objects (tracks & train) spanning the entire universe.
 
  • #34
Thanks.
 

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