Is the Notion of Public Space a Myth?

  • #26
DaveC426913
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I know a lot of you are mad at these people as I can be sometimes but I hope your problem is not with them protesting but maybe the way they do it or for what they are protesting (or not knowing what they are protesting about) or the way they act because if you are hating on them simply because you are inconvenienced somehow then as a fact you are my sworn enemy.
I think the general consensus is that they had their say, spoke their peace, no one begrudges them that, but, like the one kid at the party who wants all the attention, it's time to move on.
 
  • #27
D H
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There should NEVER be a dollar amount attached to exercising your rights because then it becomes a privilege the government affords you like getting a drivers, hunting or fishing permit in that by their hand they PERMIT.you.to.do.this.
The US Supreme Court disagrees with you. Individuals exercising their rights are one thing, large groups quite another. Another issue: Where? Even an individual can't just walk into the middle of a busy roadway and start exercising his rights. That isn't exercising one's rights; it's being a public nuisance. Yet another issue: How long? Those OWS protestors cannot be allowed stay in public parks indefinitely because after a certain amount of time that land would become theirs by adverse possession.
 
  • #28
DoggerDan
All governments everywhere continually strive to take and keep power and control from and over is citizens to maintain the upper hand "for the benefit of everyone". If not for the power its for the greed.
Interesting perspective. I attended a presentation tonight put on by a history professor who took us through 4,000 years of example after example of government corruption, ending with how our two-party system has wreaked havoc with our country over the last couple of centuries. He ended with "Republicans have become Socialists; Democrats have become Communists." Partially agree with each, but I disagree with each, too. Depends on how you slice it.
 
  • #29
MarcoD
Interesting perspective. I attended a presentation tonight put on by a history professor who took us through 4,000 years of example after example of government corruption, ending with how our two-party system has wreaked havoc with our country over the last couple of centuries. He ended with "Republicans have become Socialists; Democrats have become Communists." Partially agree with each, but I disagree with each, too. Depends on how you slice it.
Well, that's rather unique too. I would like to know the rationale behind that statement, since I don't see any?
 
  • #30
I think the general consensus is that they had their say, spoke their peace, no one begrudges them that, but, like the one kid at the party who wants all the attention, it's time to move on.
I agree somewhat but had they better organization along with a more clear and concise argument of exactly what they felt needed to be changed (so we would all know) would you be more willing or able to tolerate their actions? Of course I don't mean anyone should have to tolerate public evacuation, fires, and the lot.

D H said:
The US Supreme Court disagrees with you. Individuals exercising their rights are one thing, large groups quite another. Another issue: Where? Even an individual can't just walk into the middle of a busy roadway and start exercising his rights. That isn't exercising one's rights; it's being a public nuisance. Yet another issue: How long? Those OWS protestors cannot be allowed stay in public parks indefinitely because after a certain amount of time that land would become theirs by adverse possession.
The SCOTUS also gave corporations person-hood so as far as having faith in a group of individuals who are above the law handing down decisions concerning when, where, and how we are allowed to protest should be a moot point to anyone who can think above hunt, kill, eat. I'm not familiar with how a group of people exercising their rights together is different from and individual doing it. As far as location is concerned, it seem as if what you are saying is if I exercise certain rights anywhere other than where a government says I can it instantly becomes disobedience whether civil or not. Also, I'm really hope protesters wouldn't qualify as squatters when it came to property laws and I'm pretty sure adverse possession isn't in play here because they aren't changing the park from its original state without opposition from the owner.

Have a nice weekend everyone. I'm going fishing at the Southernmost and one of the top 100 trout fisheries in CONUS this weekend, the Guadalupe River.

Why I no multi-quote? Insert rage face here ( ).
 
  • #31
ginru
Granted, there are always differences in scale, culture, government, etc... but I find it interesting how we'd likely cheer for foreign protestors/youth to be as stubborn as possible in their movement when it's an ocean away (and they're not using it as an excuse to loot, of course).

But then the perception changes when it's in our back yard as we take more of a "Go Home, Already" attitude for the sake of public order. I'm kind of having the same opinion personally as I'd rather they opted for more constructive strategies, but if I were on the outside looking in then I might actually be more supportive of them stubbornly putting their "bodies upon the gears".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Mf9j8co70
 
  • #32
MarcoD
But then the perception changes when it's in our back yard as we take more of a "Go Home, Already" attitude for the sake of public order.
Well, apart from this forum, I looked at Bloomberg's coverage of the event and the sympathy (from government, business, even wall-street) outweighed the negative remarks. To be honest, I found the both the event pretty decent and handled pretty well by the police.
 
  • #33
DaveC426913
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I agree somewhat but had they better organization along with a more clear and concise argument of exactly what they felt needed to be changed (so we would all know) would you be more willing or able to tolerate their actions?
We accepted it without complaint for a month. That's actually pretty patient. The point is, demonstrating is only one step. If they are going to mean something they need to move past the demonstrating step and start talking.

A child who holds his breath until he turns blue may do so to get someone to pay attention to him - which is fine. But if someone asks what he's upset about, he'd better do something more than just keep holding his breath. He must learn to use his words.
 
  • #34
AlephZero
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The point is, demonstrating is only one step. If they are going to mean something they need to move past the demonstrating step and start talking.
I fell about laughing when I heard an BBC interview with one of the London protest organisers, about the time they were being served with eviction notices.

She agreed with DaveC 100%, and described at length how they were setting up focus groups, working parties, subcommittees, etc, and planning to issue a policy document at some (unknown) future date.

Er, I thought these people were tring to change the way "the system" works (or doesn't work) .... :confused:
 
  • #35
mege
I remember an offhand comment recently from one of the psudo-leaders/kingpins/adhoc chiefs of OWS mentioning about how hard is has been to reach consensus on what he thought were 'basic issues' of the movement and the journalist commented on the clip: 'now you know what it's like to be in government'.

The OWS croud have attempted to 'claim' public spaces as their own. I'd argue the exact opposite of the premise that the OP presented. The OWS folks are abusing the generocity of many organizations (governments and private park owners) right now, and it really suprises me that it's taken this long for evictions. The parks with these occupy campsites are unusable by other patrons. These groups have forced themselves into a public space and are not letting others make use of them. I wonder how many folks are dislocated that had a routine in Zucotti Park? How is one group monopolizing a public space making good use of it?

Without the public use laws that regulate these public spaces, what prevents me from putting up a structure in the middle of a National Park and living there? The occupy protests aren't much different.
 
  • #36
149
0
I remember an offhand comment recently from one of the psudo-leaders/kingpins/adhoc chiefs of OWS mentioning about how hard is has been to reach consensus on what he thought were 'basic issues' of the movement and the journalist commented on the clip: 'now you know what it's like to be in government'.

The OWS croud have attempted to 'claim' public spaces as their own. I'd argue the exact opposite of the premise that the OP presented. The OWS folks are abusing the generocity of many organizations (governments and private park owners) right now, and it really suprises me that it's taken this long for evictions. The parks with these occupy campsites are unusable by other patrons. These groups have forced themselves into a public space and are not letting others make use of them. I wonder how many folks are dislocated that had a routine in Zucotti Park? How is one group monopolizing a public space making good use of it?

Without the public use laws that regulate these public spaces, what prevents me from putting up a structure in the middle of a National Park and living there? The occupy protests aren't much different.
When the "movement" was a handful of protestors camped out in a park - it really wasn't much of a concern to public safety or a health concern. However, now that the SEIU and other organizers have stepped in to promote and coordinate events - the crowds should be much larger and will require greater controls - won't they?

http://www.seiu.org/

Given the source please label the next link - IMO.
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/11/seiu-president-arrested-as-occupy-wall.html
"The president of the very politically active union, SEIU, was arrested last night at the base of the Brooklyn Bridge, while she was participating in the Occupy Wall Street protest.

Mary Kay Henry was arrested along with George Gresham, the president of 1199 S.E.I.U. United Healthcare Workers East, and Kevin Doyle, the executive vice president of S.E.I.U. 32BJ.

Wearing white shirts emblazoned with “99%,” the three were among a group of 99 people who staged a sit-in at about 6 p.m. said the spokeswoman, Leah Gonzalez of S.E.I.U. United Healthcare Workers East, according to NYT.

It appears that this radical union, which also had many rank and file SEIU members at the protest, is attempting to gain influence with the occupiers.

Of note, former SEIU president Andy Stern was at the White House 22 times in the first six months of the Obama Administration, making him its most frequent visitor."
 

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