Is the speed of light constant?

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The discussion centers on the constancy of the speed of light, with participants exploring whether it has remained unchanged throughout the universe's history. While the speed of light is defined as 299,792,458 m/s, some astronomical measurements suggest potential variations in the fine structure constant over billions of years, indicating that light speed might have changed in the past. However, there is no definitive evidence proving that the speed of light has differed from its current value, and most scientific standards rely on its constancy. The conversation also touches on the implications of gravitational effects on time measurement and the nature of physical constants. Overall, the consensus leans towards the speed of light being constant, with ongoing discussions about the implications of any observed changes.
  • #31
888eddy said:
i found a very good article explaining how there is so much indisputable evidence that the speed of light is slowing down and that everything fits into that model so well.
...
...im probably wrong, i don't know much at all about evolution.
For the last time, do not post links to religious sites. You are welcome to reference articles published in mainstream, peer-reviewed science journals.

FYI: This "evidence" for the slowing down of the speed of light is a standard creationist claim. (See claim CE411 on talkorigins.org.)
 
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  • #32
I'm confused. If the speed of light is changing, does that mean that a vacuum's refractive index is also changing? What effect would the speeding up / slowing down of lights speed have on various models etc...

Also, I read somewhere about light being refracted by gravity...but how does this work since it has no mass. My original thoughts were about general relativity and how gravity affects time, so if light is near a massive object, time is slower and therefor it will go slower...? Can anyone tell me how this works?
 
  • #33
A Quick Overview of Some Elementary Aspects of the General Theory of Relativity (GTR)

Hi, Kristy234, and welcome to PF!

Kristy234 said:
I'm confused. If the speed of light is changing

I think you misunderstood Gokul4320's jest (read his post again).

Kristy234 said:
Also, I read somewhere about light being refracted by gravity...but how does this work since it has no mass. My original thoughts were about general relativity and how gravity affects time, so if light is near a massive object, time is slower and therefor it will go slower...?

First, there is a distinction between infinitesimal velocity (for electromagnetic or gravitational radiation, according to the general theory of relativity (gtr), the infinitesimal speed of light in a vacuum is always unity), velocity in the large (multiple distinct operationally significant notions), and coordinate speed. In gtr, the coordinate speed of light would be something like dx/dt where x(t) is a null geodesic and where the time coordinate t need not correspond to proper time. Such a coordinate speed need not be unity.

However, coordinates are in general not physically significant so this does not contradict the fact that in gtr the speed of light in vacuum is always unity. To take a more familiar example, in a polar coordinate chart on the euclidean plane, with line element
<br /> ds^2 = dr^2 + r^2 \, d\phi^2, \; 0 &lt; r &lt; \infty, \; -\infty &lt; \phi &lt; \infty<br />
the equation of a straight line has the form r = r_0 \, \sec(\phi-\phi_0), and d^2r/d\phi^2 \neq 0, but this does not mean that the line is really "bending"! A coordinate-free notion of bending is provided by the covariant derivative of the tangent to a curve.

(In gtr, the covariant derivative taken along a timelike curve of the unit tangent vector to said curve is the acceleration vector whose magnitude, the path curvature, tells us whether or not the particle whose world line is represented by this curve is bending, i.e. whether or not our particle feels any acceleration. If not, the pathc curvature vanishes and our timelike curve is a timelike geodesic.)

Second, all gravitational phenomena are represented in gtr by the curvature of spacetime itself (to be be precise, by the Riemann curvature tensor), and mathematics tells us that one way in which curvature becomes manifest is that initially parallel geodesics (the analog, in a curved manifold, of a "straight line") will diverge or converge. This effect is called geodesic deviation. You can see how it works on the surface of a globe of the world: the longitude lines are geodesic paths, and neighboring longitudes are parallel at the equator but converge as you move North or South. This convergence is one hallmark of positive Gaussian curvature; on a "saddle surface", which has negative Gaussian curvature, initially parallel geodesics will diverge (you can see this in Escher's Circle Limit woodcuts).

In gtr we use curved Lorentzian manifolds to model the geometry of spacetime. The spacetime model plays a dual role: not only does it provide the geometric setting for nongravitational physics, but its curvature competely describes all gravitational phenomena. In gtr, the world of a laser pulse (or "photon" if you prefer) traversing a vacuum region is represented by a special kind of geodesic called a null geodesic. (Because a photon is a massless particle; the world line of a particle with positive mass is a timelike geodesic if this particle is in a state of inertial motion.) The appropriate component of the curvature tensor near a massive object is negative, which means that in this scenario, initially parallel null geodesics will diverge. This leads to the so-called gravitational red shift effect, one of the four classical solar system tests of gtr (or better say, test comparing metric theories of gravitation including gtr and various competing theories).

Coming back to "speed of light", there are speculative variable speed of light theories, but these have not been accepted and so far seem to have no widely accepted experimental support. These theories are talking about something different from the effects we have discussed so far, in the context of our gold standard theory of gravitation, gtr.

As for "refraction", I can only assume that you were misled by this comment:

turbo-1 said:
Einstein claimed that the constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum was confined to a special case (the Special Theory of Relativity) and was invalidated when the gravitational effects of embedded masses needed to be considered. He regarded gravitational lensing as an example of classical refraction, and spent much of the rest of his life trying to determine what properties of space could be modified by embedded matter, and how the variations in these properties affected the propagation of EM through the vacuum.

This is a good example of why ascribing what would now be considered a fringe viewpoint to Einstein entirely out of what is invariably a complex and subtle historical context tends to be (IMO) perversely unhelpful. Although I am sure turbo meant well, he terribly misled you here, Kristy. My reasons for this judgement are too numerous to list, but let me just say this: even if turbo had accurately described AE's views V(T,C) at time T in their full historical context C--- which he most certainly did not--- and even if V(T,C) would now be considered flat out wrong--- which is not true in this case, if one restores the missing context!--- Einstein died in 1955, before the Golden Age of Relativity (c. 1960-1975), which completely transformed our knowledge and appreciate about gtr and its applications to astronomical observations, so it makes sense to direct newbies to modern textbooks, rather than writings by Einstein which would require vast additional reading in the contemporary physics literature (plus published private correspondence) in order to properly appreciate the context in which his public and private statements must be understood. In addition, it is essential that you understand that Einstein's views (as expressed in his papers and in his private letters) changed frequently and drastically, particularly those pertaining to physical issues. In his thoughtful scientific biography, Abraham Pais writes that this changeable character is in fact one hallmark of Einstein's genius.

Turbo, I hope that in future you will be more careful to avoid the appearance of pushing a fringe viewpoint by presenting a misleading description of some mythical "Einstein's view" :frown: (To mention just one objection, while by an arguably perverse shift in viewpoint one can model weak-field lensing in terms of a kind of "refraction", you seem to have forgotten about strong field lensing, which is much more complicated, yet described in fully nonlinear gtr exactly the same way--- see Chandrasekhar, Mathematical Theory of Black Holes.)

Kristy234 said:
Can anyone tell me how this works?

If you want to truly understand all this, you need to study the math. In order to understand gtr you need to have a solid grasp on many subtleties involving curved spacetime geometry, and to grasp these you need to have a solid grasp on various subtleties involving flat spacetime geometry, the kind used in str. A good place to begin is Taylor & Wheeler, Spacetime Physics. After that you can try the undergraduate level gtr textbook by D'Inverno, Understanding Einstein's Relativity.
 
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  • #34
Chris Hillman said:
First, there is a distinction between "infinitesimal velocity" (for electromagnetic or gravitational radiation, according to gtr, the infinitesimal speed of light in a vacuum is always unity), "velocity in the large" (multiple distinct notions), and "coordinate speed". In gtr, the coordinate speed of light would be something like \partial x/ \partial t where x(t) is a null geodesic, and this need not be unity, but coordinates are in generally not physically significant so this does not contradict the fact that in gtr the speed of light in vacuum is always unity.
sorry, this might sound like a stupid question but what does 'gtr' stand for? general something relativity? But apart from that, thanks, makes a bit more sense (kinda) now.

Chris Hillman said:
Second, all gravitational phenomena are represented in gtr by the curvature of spacetime itself, and mathematics tells us that one way in which curvature becomes manifest is that initially parallel geodesics (the analog, in a curved manifold, of a "straight line") will diverge or converge. You can see this on the surface of a globe of the world: the longitude lines are geodesic paths, and neighboring longitudes are parallel at the equator but converge (positive curvature!) as you move North or South.
In gtr we use curved Lorentzian manifolds to model the geometry of spacetime; the curvature of such a spacetime model represents gravitational phenomena; the spacetime model also provides the geometric setting for nongravitational physics. In gtr, the path of a laser pulse (or "photon" if you prefer) is represented by a special kind of geodesic called a null geodesic. (Because a photon is a massless particle, if you like.) Because a certain "component" of the curvature tensor near a massive object is negative, initially parallel null geodesics will diverge. This leads to the so-called "gravitational red shift" effect, one of the four classical solar system tests of gtr (or better say, test comparing metric theories of gravitation including gtr and various competing theories).
Ahh, i see, good analogy... but with the earth, it is curved in the third dimension...how is spacetime curved?

Chris Hillman said:
If you want to truly understand all this, you need to study the math. In order to understand gtr you need to have a solid grasp on many subtleties involving curved spacetime geometry, and to grasp these you need to have a solid grasp on various subtleties involving flat spacetime geometry, the kind used in str. A good place to begin is Taylor & Wheeler, Spacetime Physics. After that you can try the undergraduate level gtr textbook by D'Inverno, Understanding Einstein's Relativity.
Cool, thanks
 
  • #35
Try reloading to see the change I just made to my Post #33 to answer your question. (I have written essentially the same post, addressing dozens of newbies, dozens of times, so as you can probably appreciate, it is hard not to get a bit sloppy!)

Kristy234 said:
the Earth ... is curved in the third dimension...how is spacetime curved?

You are thinking of the surface of the Earth as what mathematicians call an embedded submanifold of three-dimensional euclidean space. Surfaces have both extrinsic curvature, which tells (in a description-invariant way) how they bend in the embedding space, and intrinsic curvature, which determines all curvature effects which can be detected within the surface itself, e.g. by measuring geodesic deviation. In gtr, only the intrinsic curvature of spacetime (measured by the Riemann curvature tensor) is physically significant.

A very good nontechnical discussion of extrinsic versus intrinsic phenomena can be found in Lawrence Sklar, Time, Space, and Spacetime.
 
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  • #36
Kristy234 said:
sorry, this might sound like a stupid question but what does 'gtr' stand for? general something relativity?

General Theory of Relativity. i always refer to it as "GR" if i need an acronym.

say Doc: i wanted to check out that creationist site (for giggles, if anything else) and you deleted the reference before i got a chance to. and, there is no "history" to the page that i know of.

grrr.

how else am i going to be entertained today?
 
  • #37
rbj said:
say Doc: i wanted to check out that creationist site (for giggles, if anything else) and you deleted the reference before i got a chance to. and, there is no "history" to the page that i know of.
I'll PM you.
 
  • #38
f95toli said:
As I pointed out above, there ARE astronomical measurements that seem to suggest that the speed of light HAS changed, not by much but by a measurable amount.

There are some astronomical measurements that suggest the speed of light (more precisely, the fine structure constant) may have changed, and other astronomical measurements that suggest it hasn't changed.

For one popular account of one experiment that has failed to find a variation in c, see for instance http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4844

While the experimental results do not agree with each other at this point, all the positive findings are tiny, typically talking about variations less than a part per million.
 
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  • #39
Chris Hillman said:
Turbo, I hope that in future you will be more careful to avoid the appearance of pushing a fringe viewpoint by presenting a misleading description of some mythical "Einstein's view" :frown: (To mention just one objection, while by an arguably perverse shift in viewpoint one can model weak-field lensing in terms of a kind of "refraction", you seem to have forgotten about strong field lensing, which is much more complicated, yet described in fully nonlinear gtr exactly the same way--- see Chandrasekhar, Mathematical Theory of Black Holes.)
I have referred to Einstein's writings because they represent his attitudes at the time that his theory of GR was fresh and current. If you want to refute these ideas, which he forcefully presented in a number of venues, you should link to to refutations that are contemporary, well-documented, and well-motivated. You will not be able to do so. Einstein claimed that gravitational lensing is due to classical optics, saying that
In the second place our result shows that, according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity and to which we have already frequently referred, cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position. Now we might think that as a consequence of this, the special theory of relativity and with it the whole theory of relativity would be laid in the dust. But in reality this is not the case. We can only conclude that the special theory of relativity cannot claim an unlimited domain of validity; its result hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influences of gravitational fields on the phenomena (e.g. of light).

Einstein's contemporaries were not happy with his progression toward a vacuum that was an active player in refraction, but they were not able to nay-say him. They were unhappy with the establishment of a non-classical ether, though Einstein pursued this for a long time. You may be smarter than Einstein, but you've got to prove it before I'll believe it.
 
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  • #40
Turbo, IMO it is an insult to the leaders of the Golden Age to imply that GTR has not been "fresh" since 1915. I repeat, IMO your historical comments are misleading and even incorrect, but my basic point is that arguing over how to understand Einstein's views on topic T c. 1915 (as far as we can judge from surviving documentation) is not particularly helpful for understanding GTR. I repeat: IMO, your comment which I quoted was seriously misleading to Kristy and appears to be pushing a point of view which would have impeded her progress toward understanding gtr.

I have liberally sprinkled this post with IMOs and suggest that at this point we should simply agree to disagree, since it is clear that you have no intention of abiding by my advice to stress our best current understanding of GTR when trying to give newcomers to relativistic physics some useful pointers in PF discussions such as this thread.

I don't want this thread to be derailed by some argument between us. I sense that you may have more to say about why you think that understanding the history of physics is important or even essential for understanding modern physics. If so, I request that you start a new thread on that topic, and I will try to drop into explain my more or less opposing view (unless of course your essay is so convincing that I decide to agree with you!). Fair enough?
 
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  • #41
You're gonig to ask us to start counting off the crackpot gambits one-by-one?

888eddy said:
it hasnt been accepted by the physics community because it suggests the universe is so young that evolution would not have had enough time to get to where it is today.

1] "the scientists are conspiring to hide the truth"


888eddy said:
this is the kind of huge piece of evidence against the slowing light speed theory i was talking about in an earlier post saying how the idea 'holds water' until someone states a reason why it wouldn't work.

2] "I've made a nice tidy model. If you can't tell me why it won't work, it must be true."



The Lockness Monster is HUNGRY!
 
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  • #42
Kristy234 said:
I'm confused. If the speed of light is changing, does that mean that a vacuum's refractive index is also changing? What effect would the speeding up / slowing down of lights speed have on various models etc...

Also, I read somewhere about light being refracted by gravity...but how does this work since it has no mass. My original thoughts were about general relativity and how gravity affects time, so if light is near a massive object, time is slower and therefor it will go slower...? Can anyone tell me how this works?

Let me give a simpler response than the one you've been given.

What the value of 'c' is depends on whose clocks and whose rulers you use. Due to effects such as "gravitational time dilation", clocks and rulers don't necessarily agree. So, the value you will measure for 'c' depends on your choice of clocks and rulers.

(This is a very slight oversimplification, but it will point you in the right direction).

With one particular choice of clocks and rulers, the speed of light is always equal to 'c'. Thus the "modern interpretation" of GR is to use this choice by default, and say that the speed of light is always equal to 'c'. This corresponds to using "local" clocks and rulers. One way of putting it - the speed of light may appear to be different from 'c' from a distant location, but if you actually go there and measure it, you find that it hasn't changed.

You might want to look at the sci.physics.faq

in particular:

Einstein went on to discover a more general theory of relativity which explained gravity in terms of curved spacetime, and he talked about the speed of light changing in this new theory. In the 1920 book "Relativity: the special and general theory" he wrote: . . . according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity [. . .] cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position. Since Einstein talks of velocity (a vector quantity: speed with direction) rather than speed alone, it is not clear that he meant the speed will change, but the reference to special relativity suggests that he did mean so. This interpretation is perfectly valid and makes good physical sense, but a more modern interpretation is that the speed of light is constant in general relativity.

The problem here comes from the fact that speed is a coordinate-dependent quantity, and is therefore somewhat ambiguous. To determine speed (distance moved/time taken) you must first choose some standards of distance and time, and different choices can give different answers. This is already true in special relativity: if you measure the speed of light in an accelerating reference frame, the answer will, in general, differ from c.

In special relativity, the speed of light is constant when measured in any inertial frame. In general relativity, the appropriate generalisation is that the speed of light is constant in any freely falling reference frame (in a region small enough that tidal effects can be neglected). In this passage, Einstein is not talking about a freely falling frame, but rather about a frame at rest relative to a source of gravity. In such a frame, the speed of light can differ from c, basically because of the effect of gravity (spacetime curvature) on clocks and rulers.

If general relativity is correct, then the constancy of the speed of light in inertial frames is a tautology from the geometry of spacetime.
 
  • #43
Chris Hillman said:
I don't want this thread to be derailed by some argument between us. I sense that you may have more to say about why you think that understanding the history of physics is important or even essential for understanding modern physics. If so, I request that you start a new thread on that topic, and I will try to drop into explain my more or less opposing view (unless of course your essay is so convincing that I decide to agree with you!). Fair enough?
Fair enough, Chris. I will take some time in the next day or so to pull in some relevant references. One in particular ("On the Ether", 1924) is available only in hard-copy, so I'll have to transcribe relevant portions of that.
 

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