Is the Universe Expanding Faster Than the Speed of Light?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of the universe's expansion, particularly whether it is expanding faster than the speed of light. Participants explore the implications of the universe's age and size, the role of dark energy, and the nature of cosmic expansion in relation to relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the universe's size exceeds the distance light can travel in its age, raising questions about whether this indicates an expansion rate faster than light.
  • Others argue that the expansion of the universe does not have a conventional "speed" and that the scale factor's rate of increase is not limited by the speed of light.
  • A later reply mentions that in the early universe, the rate of increase of the scale factor was much greater than the speed of light.
  • One participant emphasizes that the expansion should not be confused with ordinary motion, as it involves distances increasing by a percentage rather than a fixed speed.
  • Another participant notes that the light we observe from the edge of the observable universe was emitted when those objects were much closer, and that they are now receding at a rate that can exceed the speed of light due to the expansion of space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of cosmic expansion and its relationship to the speed of light. There is no consensus on whether the universe is expanding faster than light, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of relating the universe's expansion to conventional speeds and the implications of general relativity. There are references to equations and concepts that are not fully detailed in the discussion.

myric
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I'm trying to reconcile the age and size of the universe. The size of the universe is more than twice the distance light can travel in the time it has existed. Does this mean that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light or that it did initially and has slowed down since? I have read that the universe is actually accelerating due to dark energy or some other unknown effect so I guess it isn't slowing down. Does this come down to relativity and the 14.7B years is in a certain frame of reference?
 
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myric said:
I'm trying to reconcile the age and size of the universe. The size of the universe is more than twice the distance light can travel in the time it has existed. Does this mean that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light or that it did initially and has slowed down since? I have read that the universe is actually accelerating due to dark energy or some other unknown effect so I guess it isn't slowing down. Does this come down to relativity and the 14.7B years is in a certain frame of reference?
The light that we see today from the edge of the observable universe was MUCH closer when it was emitted (I forget the numbers but it was 100,000s of millions of light years or less as I recall). After it was emitted, it was carried away by the expansion of the universe, making progress towards us but very slowly even though locally it always travels at c. Where the emitting objects are "now" is about 47 billion light years away and are receding from us at about 3c.

I put "now" in quotes because it's not that simple.
 
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myric said:
Does this mean that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light

Not really; the expansion doesn't have a "speed", and the rate of increase of the scale factor, which is what pop science treatments usually mean when they talk about the "speed of expansion", is not a "speed" in the ordinary sense and is not limited to the speed of light. In the early universe, the rate of increase of the scale factor was in fact much faster than ##c##.

You might want to check out this fairly recent thread on the various possible meanings of "rate of expansion":

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/cosmologys-sole-rate-of-expansion-is-declining.840505/
 
myric said:
... The size of the universe is more than twice the distance light can travel in the time it has existed.
...?

Hi Myric, welcome.
A light year is the distance light can travel in one year without the help of distance-expansion.

The pattern of expansion shouldn't be confused with ordinary motion because nobody gets anywhere by it, no body approaches a goal, everybody just becomes farther apart by some percentage growth rate. And the expansion of any given distance is not limited by any particular speed, like c. It could be more it could be less--it's a percentage change like the interest rate in a bank account. the rate changes over time according to an equation that is basically Einstein's gen. rel. equation of 1915. GR is something to accept and get used to

It's not so surprising that light could travel 47 billion light years in a period of time that is just 13.8 billion years, if you allow for expansion
 

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