Is there some geometrical interpretation of force from Newton's Laws?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the geometrical interpretation of force as described by Newton's Laws, exploring the relationships between momentum, energy, and force in both closed and non-closed systems. Participants examine the implications of these relationships and seek to understand whether a geometrical perspective can be applied to force.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents equations relating changes in momentum (dP) and energy (dE) to force (F), questioning the implications for the definition of force and the potential for a geometrical interpretation.
  • Another participant clarifies that while momentum and energy are conserved in closed systems, applying a net force indicates a non-closed system, emphasizing that changes in energy and momentum are proportional to distance and time, respectively, and are not interchangeable.
  • A third participant states that force can be viewed as the gradient of potential energy, providing a mathematical relationship in one dimension and discussing the conservation of energy in relation to changes in kinetic and potential energy.
  • One participant notes that the relationship between force and potential energy applies only to conservative forces, suggesting limitations in the generality of this interpretation.
  • Another participant raises a question about the (dP, dE) formalism, suggesting it resembles the four-vector formalism of special relativity and expressing uncertainty about its application to Newtonian mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interchangeability of momentum and energy, the applicability of the gradient of potential energy to all forces, and the interpretation of the (dP, dE) formalism. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity regarding the definitions of momentum and energy as vectors and scalars, respectively, and the implications of applying force in non-closed systems. There is also an acknowledgment of the limitations of the geometrical interpretation of force, particularly concerning conservative versus non-conservative forces.

OlegKmechak
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dP = F dt
dE = F dr

or if we introduce ds = (dt, dr)

(dP, dE) = F ds

And both dP and dE are constant in closed system.

Some questions:
- How does its implies on definition of Force?
- Is there some clever geometrical interpretation of Force?
- Why P and E seems almost interchengable?
 
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Both momentum and energy are conserved in a closed system, but if we’re applying a net force to an object it’s not a closed system. The dP and dE equations tell us how the momentum and energy change in this non-closed system as a result of applying the force.

A quick look at the equations will tell you that the change in energy is proportional to the distance across which the force is applied while the change in momentum is proportional to the time the force is applied; they are different things not interchangeable. The difference will be more apparent if you write the equations out more precisely to reflect that ##P## and ##r## are vectors while ##E## and ##t## are scalars.

And what is that (dP,dE) formalism in the third equation? It looks like the four-vector formalism of special relativity? If that’s what it is, you might want to hold off on that until you’ve thoroughly nailed down your understanding of the Newtonian model.
 
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Force is the gradient of the potential energy. Working in one dimension, we have F = -dU/dx. The rate of change of potential energy with time is

$$\frac{dU}{dx} \frac{dx}{dt} = -Fv$$

The rate of change of kinetic energy T is

$$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{1}{2}mv^2 = \frac{dT}{dv} \frac{dv}{dt} =mv \frac{dv}{dt} = mva$$

Because energy is conserved, the change in kinetic energy must compensate the change in potential energy, so we must have Fv = mva, i.e. we have

$$F = ma$$
 
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love_42 said:
Force is the gradient of the potential energy.
This is only true for conservative forces, not for all forces.
 
Nugatory said:
And what is that (dP,dE) formalism in the third equation? It looks like the four-vector formalism of special relativity? If that’s what it is, you might want to hold off on that until you’ve thoroughly nailed down your understanding of the Newtonian model.
In special relativity time and space are same things(with precission to signature). So from this point of view momentum P and energy E are same things(vector in 4-d space) or isn't it?
Sory, it is hard to me to explain what I want to find out :) I will take a little break
 

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