Is This the End of the Gaza War?

[Greg Bernhardt]

Sounds like this could really be it this time. What do you think?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20351553

 

[russ_watters]

I tend to doubt it. I don't think either side really wants an all-out war. Nasty, though.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I tend to doubt it. I don't think either side really wants an all-out war. Nasty, though.

What do you think will calm things down again? Egypt?

 

[russ_watters]

What do you think will calm things down again? Egypt?

I think it will just run its course in a week.

[edit] Last time it was 3 weeks and included an invasion though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Er: actually, there was a shorter one earlier this year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2012_Gaza–Israel_clashes

 

[Jack21222]

I just hope as few civilians on both sides get killed as possible. Hamas intentionally targets civilians, and Israel isn't known for its restraint in killing whomever happens to be in its way (just ask Rachel Corrie). So, it doesn't look good.

 

[CAC1001]

I just hope as few civilians on both sides get killed as possible. Hamas intentionally targets civilians, and Israel isn't known for its restraint in killing whomever happens to be in its way (just ask Rachel Corrie). So, it doesn't look good.

Rachel Corrie's death was her own fault and the fault of the organization that decided to take naive young kids and put them into a war zone with minimal training. The Israel haters of the world spun that story to portray as a courageous young peace activist who in the process of protesting got heartlessly driven over by an Israeli bulldozer. The reality is while she likely was a courageous young (albeit naive and probably very ignorant) peace activist, she got killed because she was in a dangerous area and the bulldozer driver (who had a very limited field of vision due to this being an armored bulldozer) couldn't see her from where she had positioned herself. The Israeli judicial system (which is based very much on British law) investigated the incident in-depth and ruled that it was her fault.

The media showed pictures of "before" and "after" with claims that the first photo was taken right before Rachel was run over and that the second photo had been taken supposedly a few minutes later, right after she had been run over. The reality was that the first photo had been taken hours before her getting killed, and in it, she is clearly very visible to the driver of the bulldozer. The bulldozers in the "before and after" pictures are also different bulldozers. The media that ran these pictures had to retract them when the facts came out.

Here is a good book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0984039805/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[russ_watters]

While I do agree with you, let's not turn this into a Rachael Corrie debate.

 

[Evo]

This thread will be locked if it becomes another "blame game". We have members from both areas here and I will not tolerate one side claiming the other side is worse, to blame, wrong, evil, yada yada yada.

Discussion about "this" particular incident is allowable as long as it remans civil. No going backwards and posting about prior incidents.

 

[aquitaine]

Sounds like this could really be it this time. What do you think?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20351553

I've got a running bet with a friend of mine as to where World War 3 will start. He says the Middle East, I say China. Personally I don't think this latest Gaza flareup will result in much.

 

[lisab]

This thread will be locked if it becomes another "blame game". We have members from both areas here and I will not tolerate one side claiming the other side is worse, to blame, wrong, evil, yada yada yada.

Discussion about "this" particular incident is allowable as long as it remans civil. No going backwards and posting about prior incidents.

Bold: If only we could require that of everyone in the region

 

[nitsuj]

to where World War 3 will start. I say China.

!!

 

[nitsuj]

bold: If only we could require that of everyone in the region

hear, hear!

 

[rootX]

I wonder if Gaza has capacity to go on war with Israel, maybe this will be just asymmetrical warfare?

I don't see very high risk of dying from those Gaza rockets. Israel have Iron Dome and second those rockets just seem to fly without any target. But, Israel doesn't struggle a lot to eliminate the rockets' sources.

 

[fargoth]

The Israeli operation is due to tens of rockets per day being fired almost every day for the last four months from the Gaza strip to the Israeli territory around it.
Cities 20-40 km around Gaza strip were hearing sirens all day long requiring them to run into shelter.
Although these rockets rarely kill, because the population has nearby shelters and proper warnings, they do cause property damage once in a while and disrupt the way of living for hundred of thousands of people when classes get canceled and people are afraid to walk in the streets.

I hope the ammunition in Gaza would run low fast enough for this to end quickly, since Israel's goal is to get a cease fire with Egyptian guarantee, so as soon as Hamas would call it quits, this clash would end.

 

[arildno]

We have members from both areas here and I will not tolerate one side claiming the other side is worse
.

They should all be like I am. then their conflicts would peter out in a couple of generations.

 

[aquitaine]

I wonder if Gaza has capacity to go on war with Israel, maybe this will be just asymmetrical warfare?

They don't, in a standup fight against the Israelis the Arabs have fared very badly.

I don't see very high risk of dying from those Gaza rockets. Israel have Iron Dome and second those rockets just seem to fly without any target. But, Israel doesn't struggle a lot to eliminate the rockets' sources.

The rockets are essentially World War 2 antique designs without any guidance systems, unless they're launched en masse at one target they aren't very effective. It's true that the casualties will be very light, but that isn't the point. It's more about inflicting psychological damage than physical.

 

[rootX]

They don't, in a standup fight against the Israelis the Arabs have fared very badly.

Yes and Arab countries are still unstable to stand against Israel. This is the reason I don't understand why BBC analysis is so gloomy:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20377911

But a dramatic flare-up was transformed into an increasingly serious international crisis by Israel's assassination of Ahmed Jabari

even though

So far what is happening is nowhere near the scale of the war between Hamas and Israel either side of the New Year in 2009.

So far about 3 Israelis and 40 Palestinians are dead and fortunately still low for calling this a massacre.

 

[aquitaine]

Because political instability is often a breeding ground for war, as the Falklands so dramatically demonstrated.

 

[nanosiborg]

Sounds like this could really be it this time. What do you think?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20351553

What do you mean by "it"?

 

[Evo]

The posted misinformation has been deleted, and accordingly all posts responding to the misinformation.

 

[nazarbaz]

I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing... What peaceful option do they have : shut up and obey... One day or another israelis will pay for what they are doing and, I'm afraid, it won't be pretty... The humiliation palestinians feel is just immense...
The conflict raises an important moral and political issue : where must we locate the thin fronteer between terrorism and the right to fight for your life and your freedom when all political means were exhausted... Who is the terrorist in this mess and what is a "civilian" or a "military"... ? The answer is not that simple...

 

[arildno]

"I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing"
What they are "experiencing" is better living conditions than in most non-Gulf Arab states.

Here's a few figures from Egypt:
" Maternal mortality rate:

66 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 92
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 24.23 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 80
male: 25.8 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 22.59 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 72.93 years
country comparison to the world: 122
male: 70.33 years
female: 75.66 years (2012 est.)"

And here, from the Gaza Strip:
" Maternal mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
64 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 95
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 16.55 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 104
male: 17.65 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 15.38 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 74.16 years
country comparison to the world: 110
male: 72.48 years
female: 75.95 years (2012 est.)"

--------------------------------

The real FALLACY is to represent Palestinians to be "suffering" at all.

 

[nazarbaz]

"I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing"
What they are "experiencing" is better living conditions than in most non-Gulf Arab states.

Here's a few figures from Egypt:
" Maternal mortality rate:

66 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 92
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 24.23 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 80
male: 25.8 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 22.59 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 72.93 years
country comparison to the world: 122
male: 70.33 years
female: 75.66 years (2012 est.)"

And here, from the Gaza Strip:
" Maternal mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
64 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 95
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 16.55 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 104
male: 17.65 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 15.38 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 74.16 years
country comparison to the world: 110
male: 72.48 years
female: 75.95 years (2012 est.)"

--------------------------------

The real FALLACY is to represent Palestinians to be "suffering" at all.

Nice little Israel, so caring and human, surrounded by this ungrateful people.
Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die.
I have palestinian friends and they are very mad whatever you'll say.
You can choose to ignore their feeling, but please, for god's or devil's sake, don't claim that they have every reason to be happy but they prefer not to.
That's a symbolic killing : dispossessing someone of his own feelings.

 

[russ_watters]

Nazarbaz, the humanitarian situation in Gaza is largely the doing of the Palestinians. While Israel does not typically respond to minor attacks, no matter how frequent, they do have a vested interest in preventing an escalation and as a result, they have a vested interest in preventing weapons from getting into Gaza. Which they certainly have a right to do. Hence, the blockade. And it isn't like Israel is alone in this: Egypt takes pretty much the same position.

More generally though:

The Palestinians are in a tough spot, definitely, but it is the catch-22 of their situation and goals that puts them there. The current status quo of the decades-old "war" is Israel having pretty much everything it wants, so an end to fighting would mean Israel "wins". Not liking the status quo means the Palestinians are the ones who want to keep the war going, in the hope that someday they can turn the tide. So they'll shoot a few rockets a day or a week, forever to keep the war "officially" going.

The problem now appears to me that a rocket a day isn't enough anymore to keep the war going. It may be due to the Iron Dome system, but Israel doesn't seem to care much about the continuous attacks. So for the most part, the Palestinians are fighting a war against Israel that the Israelis are ignoring. So every now and then, Hamas decides they have to escalate it to remind people there is an actual war goin on.

The catch-22 is that the continued attacks and periodic escalation make Hamas/the Palestinians look to the rest of the world like the aggressors(well that, plus the open support of terrorism, of course*), which appears to be causing their global support to diminish. It is sad to me, but it appears that instead of making an undesirable peace, they are choosing to
endure generations of suffering in a losing war.

*And Nazarbaz: you cannot make it ok to bomb a bus full of civilians by messing with the definition of the word used to describe it.

 

[arildno]

"Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die."

That is PRECISELY what statistics give you, rather than emotional outbursts.

 

[nazarbaz]

"Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die."

That is PRECISELY what statistics give you, rather than emotional outbursts.

Calculate human lives then and think of it as a theorem. You'll know the essence of what humanity is.

 

[arildno]

Calculate human lives then and think of it as a theorem. You'll know the essence of what humanity is.

Factor in an evil genocidal culture lecturing day after day, in schools, mosques and newspapers about the virtue of exterminating Jews, and you'll understand why Palestinians should not be given any chance whatsoever from realizing any of their stated goals.

Their misery is strictly, and solely, their own fault.

 

[nazarbaz]

Nazarbaz, the humanitarian situation in Gaza is largely the doing of the Palestinians. While Israel does not typically respond to minor attacks, no matter how frequent, they do have a vested interest in preventing an escalation and as a result, they have a vested interest in preventing weapons from getting into Gaza. Which they certainly have a right to do. Hence, the blockade. And it isn't like Israel is alone in this: Egypt takes pretty much the same position.

More generally though:

The Palestinians are in a tough spot, definitely, but it is the catch-22 of their situation and goals that puts them there. The current status quo of the decades-old "war" is Israel having pretty much everything it wants, so an end to fighting would mean Israel "wins". Not liking the status quo means the Palestinians are the ones who want to keep the war going, in the hope that someday they can turn the tide. So they'll shoot a few rockets a day or a week, forever to keep the war "officially" going.

The problem now appears to me that a rocket a day isn't enough anymore to keep the war going. It may be due to the Iron Dome system, but Israel doesn't seem to care much about the continuous attacks. So for the most part, the Palestinians are fighting a war against Israel that the Israelis are ignoring. So every now and then, Hamas decides they have to escalate it to remind people there is an actual war goin on.

The catch-22 is that the continued attacks and periodic escalation make Hamas/the Palestinians look to the rest of the world like the aggressors, which appears to be causing their global support to diminish. It is sad to me, but it appears that instead of making an undesirable peace, they are choosing to endure generations of suffering in a losing war.

The question of who began what is insoluble, Russ. I'm not going into this and I'm not talking about the recent outburst. But to say that the humantarian situation is mostly, more or less, to that extent or the other, the palestinians fault is simply not acceptable. We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation. No one is good or evil, no one is responsible for it. The situation went wrong from the very beginning as everyone acted according it's own interests.
You can't ask palestinians to accept any peace process unleashed by the other part, it's not fair. And you can't blame them for resisting the logic of the most powerful.

 

[nazarbaz]

Factor in an evil genocidal culture lecturing day after day, in schools, mosques and newspapers about the virtue of exterminating Jews, and you'll understand why Palestinians should not be given any chance whatsoever from realizing any of their stated goals.

Their misery is strictly, and solely, their own fault.

I Will not answer to that. Everything is clear, I think.

 

[arildno]

1. "The question of who began what is insoluble"
No, it is perfectly soluble. It began by the evil culture fostered by men like Haj-Amin al-Husseini, orchestrating massacres on peacefully, legitimately settled Jews back in the 1920s That evil policy of terror intensified during the 1930s and 1940s.

2. " We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation."
Incorrect. Israel has NEVER denied the other part the right to exist as a nation. That is SOLELY the position of the Palestinians and fellow Arab governments.