Is Turbulence Necessary for Lift on a Wing?

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The discussion centers on whether turbulence is necessary for lift generation on a wing. Participants explore the relationship between airflow speed and the formation of vortices, suggesting that while faster airflow over the wing contributes to lift, vortices may not be essential for lift itself. Some argue that lift can still occur in laminar flow conditions, as evidenced by scenarios like airflow in a pipe. The conversation also touches on the distinction between turbulence and vortices, with some participants asserting that vortices can exist without turbulence. Ultimately, the necessity of turbulence for lift remains a debated topic, with various perspectives on its role in aerodynamic principles.
  • #61
Arjan82 said:
@russ_watters, regarding post #48, I've tried to infer your way of viewing lift. Am I correct in my description of your thoughts below?
...
Yes, that's basically what I'm saying. Also, I really dislike the flat plate since the airflow over the top surface is just such a mess. But at least in that pic you can see the stagnation point down under the "chin" and the airflow curving up to meet the airfoil before it even gets to it.
 
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  • #62
Just to be clear, I look at this now strictly from an earth-fixed reference frame, so the foil is moving and the box is standing still.

russ_watters said:
I'm not sure if you mean that literally. A point by definition has zero size. While I guess it is possible that a single molecule is sitting on the leading edge, straddling the stagnation point, I doubt it. Air certainly doesn't pile-up there.

That there is a forward velocity component doesn't mean the air piles-up. Take an air parcel as close to the stagnation point as you can. At this stagnation point a tangent line to the foil is vertical. What you suggest is that if the foil starts moving this air parcel never moves forward but just directly upward (or downward). I find that unlikely since the wall can only push in horizontal direction (ignoring friction) or, because a parcel has a finite size and the tangent point is indeed a point, the wall will move the parcel nearly only forward. Because of continuity the other parcels around it also need to have a forward velocity component albeit somewhat lower.

russ_watters said:
If air molecules get slowed down as they approach the stagnation point, they must be accompanied by air molecules further away (vertically) that speed up, so the average velocity is higher.

So, following the frame of reference of the foil the approaching air 'slows down' as you say. But from the frame of reference of the box, the air was already not moving. Thus the approaching foil 'speeds up' the air in the other direction, forward that is :).
 

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