Is Universal Expansion Perceptible to Observers?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of universal expansion and whether such an expansion would be perceptible to observers within the universe. Participants explore theoretical implications of proportional expansion of all physical dimensions and constants, as well as the relationship between local and cosmic scales.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that if everything in the universe were to expand proportionately, observers would not be able to detect this change since their scales and clocks would also adjust accordingly.
  • Another participant questions the definition of such an expansion, suggesting that changing the definition of units does not equate to physical expansion of the solar system.
  • A participant references Dirac's Large Number Hypothesis, suggesting that if fundamental constants changed proportionally, it would go unnoticed.
  • In response, another participant notes that dimensionless fundamental constants would be noticeable if they changed, as they are independent of unit systems.
  • One participant raises the possibility that local systems, such as the solar system and atomic structures, could be expanding alongside the cosmic expansion, questioning how this could be detected.
  • A later reply indicates skepticism about the feasibility of such an expansion, suggesting that it has been discussed frequently in the forum without resolution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the perceptibility of universal expansion, with some suggesting it would be undetectable while others argue that certain changes could be noticed. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of universal expansion on local systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in defining expansion and the dependence on the choice of units. There is also an acknowledgment of the complexity surrounding gravitationally bound systems and their relationship to cosmic expansion.

vinven7
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Suppose that everything in the Universe - the radius of the sun, the astronomical units, radius of atoms, and everything else were to expand proportionately during the same period of time. This would mean also that the ratio of the time period of the various planets around the sun, and all local clocks, would also adjust their time accordingly.
Can an observer in such a universe make out that such an expansion were really happening? Wouldn't all his 'scales' and 'clocks' also be correspondingly changed to match this proportion? I suppose we can assume without loss of generality that such an expansion is very very slow.
 
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How do you define such an expansion? Expand relative to what?

You can "expand" all length values to ten times their numerical value in meters just by changing the definition of the length of one meter, but did that really expand the solar system?
 
I was thinking about Dirac's Large number hypothesis and it struck me that if all the fundamental constants were to change their values in proportion, then we would not notice it at all. Any thoughts on this?
 
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There are dimensionless fundamental constants. They are independent of our unit systems. If they would change, we would notice. Ratios between particle masses, for example.
 
Thanks! I guess that does answer my question.

So then, is it possible that such an expansion is happening along with the expansion of the universe as we see it today? ie, as the galaxies move away from each other, could it be that the solar system, the atom, the sun etc is also expanding? This is not the same question as whether gravitationally bound systems expand with the universe - the Earth for example does not move further away from the sun; that would be true only if the radii of the sun and the Earth were to remain the same while the distance between them changes. But if the radii of the Earth and the sun were to change along with the distance between them, how do we find this out?
 
vinven7 said:
Thanks! I guess that does answer my question.

So then, is it possible that such an expansion is happening along with the expansion of the universe as we see it today? ie, as the galaxies move away from each other, could it be that the solar system, the atom, the sun etc is also expanding? This is not the same question as whether gravitationally bound systems expand with the universe - the Earth for example does not move further away from the sun; that would be true only if the radii of the sun and the Earth were to remain the same while the distance between them changes. But if the radii of the Earth and the sun were to change along with the distance between them, how do we find this out?
We get this question about once a month. It doesn't work. Try a forum search.
 

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