Is vinegar plus bicarb a cleaner or disinfectant?

[Merlin3189]

TL;DR

Mixture of Acetic acid and Sodium Bicarbonate (or Carbonate) are recommended as cleaners. Is it nonsense?

Something in short supply at the moment is surface cleaner / disinfectant. Again this recipe for a cleaner came up, amazingly on the BBC. I've heard it before and of course it's common on the web.

It seems to me that even if a weak acid or a alkali were of any use as a cleaner or disinfectant, mixing them to produce a more neutral solution seems to defeat both.

When used as a drain cleaner and the ingredients are put in separately, I can see there is some mechanical cleaning action when they react. With the carbonate first perhaps there's even some reaction with fats to make them more mobile. But premixed as in a general surface cleaner, I don't suppose you even get that.

Most recipes seeem to include some detergent, so perhaps they are then comparable with most commercial products. But why add the vinegar and (bi)carbonate?

Just wonder if I'm missing something and there really is something to it?

 

[jim mcnamara]

I do not see how...

Sodium acetate is not a surfactant. It is commonly used as a buffer agent. Maybe that property is useful in cleaning.
[guess]
Solo strong vinegar solution is unpleasant on skin, additional sodium acetate keeps the pH up enough to help.
Excess NaAc would render vinegar useless as a cleaner unless created in small amounts - Vinegar is definitely used to clean glass for example.
[/guess]

 

[symbolipoint]

Not the first that I have heard of this. The salt, Sodium Acetate does not seem like much different from most other uncomplicated salts. In this case just a little bit alkaline if on its own in solution. No point seems to be in neutralizing an alkaline salt(Sodium Bicarbonate, in this case) with solution of Acetic Acid, just to create a salt solution. Mixing the two of them strikes as nonsense to create a cleaning product or solution.

If anyone knows differently, then tell us!
( Does vinegar contain other useful cleansing or disinfectant compounds? )

 

[Rive]

Just wonder if I'm missing something and there really is something to it?

You are right: alone, both can be used for cleaning (the efficiency is low, but at least it is harmless).
Together - well, that's ~ the same line of thought what leads to mixing HCl and bleach.

 

[Tom.G]

Vinegar + table salt = HCl, or Hydrochloric acid. If you have eaten Fish-'N'-Chips with salt and vinegar, that is what you are tasting.

Vinegar + newspaper = H₂SO₄, or Sulfuric acid. A great combination for cleaning windows! (newsprint is a low grade paper with much Sulfur in it)

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Borek]

Vinegar + table salt = HCl, or Hydrochloric acid. If you have eaten Fish-'N'-Chips with salt and vinegar, that is what you are tasting.

Nope. While the solution combining NaCl and vinegar contains both H⁺ and Cl^-, like muriatic acid does, their concentrations are way too small to call this a HCl solution. It is dominated by the properties of undissociated acetic acid.

Plus, there we started with bicarbonate, not the kitchen salt.

Vinegar + newspaper = H₂SO₄, or Sulfuric acid. A great combination for cleaning windows! (newsprint is a low grade paper with much Sulfur in it)

No. Again, only traces, not important for the solution properties.

 

[chemisttree]

Reeeaallly hard to create stronger acids from weak acids plus a salt.

 

[gmax137]

leads to mixing HCl and bleach

Surprising isn't it? That people suggest this. AFAIK, what it does is create chlorine gas. Not a great idea under ideal circumstances...

 

[pinball1970]

Summary:: Mixture of Acetic acid and Sodium Bicarbonate (or Carbonate) are recommended as cleaners. Is it nonsense?

Something in short supply at the moment is surface cleaner / disinfectant. Again this recipe for a cleaner came up, amazingly on the BBC. I've heard it before and of course it's common on the web.

It seems to me that even if a weak acid or a alkali were of any use as a cleaner or disinfectant, mixing them to produce a more neutral solution seems to defeat both.

When used as a drain cleaner and the ingredients are put in separately, I can see there is some mechanical cleaning action when they react. With the carbonate first perhaps there's even some reaction with fats to make them more mobile. But premixed as in a general surface cleaner, I don't suppose you even get that.

Most recipes seeem to include some detergent, so perhaps they are then comparable with most commercial products. But why add the vinegar and (bi)carbonate?

Just wonder if I'm missing something and there really is something to it?

I cannot see it. Mixing them removes the capacity from each to do much chemically as has been pointed out by yourself and others above.
Using each separately
Low pH from the acetic may have mild anti bacterial and the bicarb may have mild washing properties.
Washing powders are Basic in solution.
This article in the telegraph says it's an old wives tale regarding vinegar and windows. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/interiors/home/best-way-clean-windows/

 

[chemisttree]

Distilled white vinegar would likely dry spot-free though.

 

[Rive]

Distilled white vinegar would likely dry spot-free though.

Only, if there is nothing it can 'clean' there

 

[pinball1970]

Distilled white vinegar would likely dry spot-free though.

You certainly get a squeak, that's because there is more friction than if you use soap/detergents with surfactants.
Good housekeeping recommended lemon if you have no vinegar.
It will smell nicer but in terms of cleaning and bacteriocidal properties I would say not that much.
The cleaning material they are using on Corona patients houses in UK has a chemical I think may be used as an insecticide. Formula 42?

 

[rbelli1]

( Does vinegar contain other useful cleansing or disinfectant compounds? )

It contains water which is often effective for cleaning. Other than that and the previously mentioned acetic acid it should contain nothing else. This is assuming white vinegar.

BoB

 

[chemisttree]

You certainly get a squeak, that's because there is more friction than if you use soap/detergents with surfactants.
Good housekeeping recommended lemon if you have no vinegar.
It will smell nicer but in terms of cleaning and bacteriocidal properties I would say not that much.
The cleaning material they are using on Corona patients houses in UK has a chemical I think may be used as an insecticide. Formula 42?

Sanifil Formula 42 has water, non-ionic surfactant, tetrasodium EDTA, citric acid, optical brighteners, dye and fragrances. Some of that stuff, including water, can kill insects.
The non-ionic is nonlyphenol ethoxylate, likely a Triton X-100 type ethoxylate, which is an industrial cleaner that can kill baby fish, shrimp, etc. if it gets into groundwater. Likely kills insects too in great enough concentration.

 

[symbolipoint]

It contains water which is often effective for cleaning. Other than that and the previously mentioned acetic acid it should contain nothing else. This is assuming white vinegar.

BoB

The reason I ask is that I do not want to oversimplify the meaning of "vinegar" believing it were simply solution of acetic acid in water and nothing more.

 

[rbelli1]

simply solution of acetic acid in water and nothing more.

You are not mistaken. It is acetic acid diluted with water to 5% or so as long as you are talking about distilled white vinegar.

You also can have cider, wine, honey, etc. vinegar which has other stuff in it. Those are usually not desirable for use as cleaners.

BoB

 

[PAllen]

Vinegar alone is considered a moderately effective disinfectant, but not with bicarbonate. Years ago, I read a study that found treatment of a surface with vinegar, wait, wipe, then peroxide, wait, wipe, was more effective than standard dilutions of bleach. However, the topic was bacteria (salmonella, listeria, e.coli, etc), not viruses. For Covid 19, CDC currently lists Peroxide as a fully effective surface disenfectant, so this regimen would work fine, but it is unclear the vinegar would be doing anything for covid.