Jaan Kalda kinematics -- Radius of Curvature of a Cycloid

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    Kinematic Olympiad
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the curvature radius of a cycloid, specifically at its highest point. Participants explore the relationship between the curvature of the cycloid and the geometry of a rolling wheel, including the implications of velocity and acceleration in different reference frames.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the curvature radius at the highest point of the cycloid can be derived by equating 4v²/r with v²/R, leading to the conclusion that r=4R.
  • Others argue that the expected answer should be 2r, which is the distance from the highest point to the ground, but clarify that this does not represent the curvature radius.
  • One participant notes that the curvature of the cycloid is flatter than that of the wheel, suggesting that the center of curvature is not fixed and moves as the wheel rotates.
  • Another participant mentions that 2r corresponds to the instantaneous center of rotation, which equals the curvature radius only if that center is static, indicating that this is not necessarily the case for a translating point.
  • There is a suggestion to parametrize the cycloid and apply Fresnel analysis to further investigate the curvature, although this is seen as a more complex approach than the one initially presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the curvature radius and the expected value of 2r, with no consensus reached on the correct interpretation of the curvature at the highest point of the cycloid.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on definitions of curvature and the conditions under which certain values apply, as well as the complexities introduced by the motion of the wheel.

imbumb
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Cycloid is a curve which can be defined as a trajectory of a point marked on the rim of a rolling wheel or radius R. Determine the curvature radius of such curve at its highest point.

what you need to do is to equate 4v²/r with v²/R and to get that r=4R but i dont understand why the answer shpuldnt just be 2r
 
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imbumb said:
Cycloid is a curve which can be defined as a trajectory of a point marked on the rim of a rolling wheel or radius R. Determine the curvature radius of such curve at its highest point.

what you need to do is to equate 4v²/r with v²/R and to get that r=4R but i dont understand why the answer shpuldnt just be 2r
2r is the distance between the highest point and the ground. What they are looking for is the radius of the arc that is made when the point on the wheel is at its highest point. If you look at a picture of it, you will see that the curve made by the point is much flatter than the curve of the wheel.

-Dan
 
topsquark said:
2r is the distance between the highest point and the ground. What they are looking for is the radius of the arc that is made when the point on the wheel is at its highest point. If you look at a picture of it, you will see that the curve made by the point is much flatter than the curve of the wheel.

-Dan
why would the curve of the point be flatter than the curve of the wheel?
edit: i think i get it now
 
Last edited:
imbumb said:
why would the curve of the point be flatter than the curve of the wheel?
edit: i think i get it now
Because the center of curvature is not a fixed location. It moves as the wheel rotates.
 
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imbumb said:
Cycloid is a curve which can be defined as a trajectory of a point marked on the rim of a rolling wheel or radius R. Determine the curvature radius of such curve at its highest point.

what you need to do is to equate 4v²/r with v²/R and to get that r=4R but i dont understand why the answer shpuldnt just be 2r
2r is the distance to the instantaneous center of rotation, which equals the curvature radius, if that center of rotation is a static point, but not necessarily if it translates.
 
Hm, just do the calculation. Start by parametrizing the cycloid and then analyze it with the usual (plane) Fresnet analysis.
 
vanhees71 said:
Hm, just do the calculation. Start by parametrizing the cycloid and then analyze it with the usual (plane) Fresnet analysis.
The OP already states a simpler way to calculate it, based on acceleration being the same in the ground frame and the wheel center frame. The question was why the result doesn't match the value intuitively expected by the OP.
 

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