Fukushima Japan earthquake - contamination & consequences outside Fukushima NPP

AI Thread Summary
The French IRSN has released a report detailing contamination levels around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, highlighting cesium contamination based on SPEEDI/MEXT estimations. Concerns have been raised about the transparency and accuracy of radiation projections, with some questioning the reliability of data from the IAEA and Japanese agencies. The discussion emphasizes the emotional impact on the Japanese population, particularly regarding safety standards for children exposed to radiation. There are ongoing debates about the adequacy of current radiation limits and the effectiveness of monitoring efforts. Overall, the conversation reflects significant distrust in the reporting and management of nuclear contamination issues.
  • #151
tsutsuji said:
http://www.afpbb.com/article/disast...pbb&utm_medium=topics&utm_campaign=txt_topics Hot spots found in Fukushima City in a study made by the Kobe university school of marine study at the request of citizen groups. They are above the government level of 10,000 Bq/kg with radiations of 46,540 Bq/kg in Earth samples in one area and between 16,290 and 19,220 Bq/kg in three other areas.

http://www.jiji.com/jc/eqa?g=eqa&k=2011070500588 air radiations were measured between 3.2 and 3.83 microsievert/hour. The citizen groups stress that these areas would fall into the compulsory relocation area category if they were located in Chernobyl. At a school where the City government found 0.15 microsievert/hour, the study found 1.86 microsievert/hour and 13,812 Bq/kg.

Does government perform any decontamination anywhere? Fukushima prefecture? Tokyo?

A regular, relatively simple water spray on the roads would do a lot towards reducing dust inhalation, and will wash out more soluble contaminants (which in practice means caesium).

Does government instruct people how they can reduce airborne dust in their homes? (I would guess regular vacuuming followed by wet cleaning).

Any plans to treat affected land? You know, Belorussians have a lot of experience with that. IIRC they used deep ploughing in order to move Cs underground (best if you can carefully overturn soil layer so that former top layer goes completely underground). This reduces gamma exposure. After that, they applied a generous amount of potassium fertilizer in order to reduce caesium uptake by plants. They claim about tenfold decrease of Cs in plants.

Forests proved to be impossible to decontaminate efficiently. All Cs which happened to fall on them will stay in forest plants. I guess for now the plan is not to stroll in the forests needlessly, and not collect any wild berries there...
 
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  • #152
nikkkom said:
A regular, relatively simple water spray on the roads would do a lot towards reducing dust inhalation, and will wash out more soluble contaminants (which in practice means caesium).

...to the sides of the road, where it will accumulate in the gutters, making it extremely dangerous to stop there for a cigarette or whatever. Tourists in the Chernobyl area are explicitly instructed not to stop anywhere, not to walk on the roadside and not to go near puddles under any circumstances.

It's not so much the widespread contamination that's deadly, if you don't eat the produce. It's the newly-formed hotspot that gives you 100 mSv while you take a picture of the sunset.
 
  • #153
Also, this:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20110705-00000095-mailo-l08

14 kBq/kg Cesium in the muck scraped off pool walls by Ibaraki schoolchildren in May. What kind of crazy has kids do any sort of cleanup in a radioactive environment? Damnit.
 
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  • #154
zapperzero said:
...to the sides of the road, where it will accumulate in the gutters,

Yes. Which is better than if the dust particles will be continually kicked up from road surface into the air by passing cars.

making it extremely dangerous to stop there for a cigarette or whatever.

Wrong. Stopping there for a short time (tens of minutes) won't be a big deal, unless you decide to lick the ground. For people in contaminated areas the biggest problem is long-term absorbtion of particles by inhaling, and external gamma radiation. That's why gamma-active Cs-137 needs to be removed from the most used places first (e.g. roads, squares, school yards), even if this will make it accumulate in less used places (sewers, roadside ditches).
 
  • #155
nikkkom said:
Wrong. Stopping there for a short time (tens of minutes) won't be a big deal, unless you decide to lick the ground.

Or kick up the dust. Or carry it with you into your home, where it will kill you softly for years to come. This is not a sci-fi post-apocalyptic movie. It's real life. The good guys do NOT get to saunter through the ruins, scavenging free food and drinks from the abandoned supermarkets.

EDIT: not unless they happen to stumble upon a cache of dosimeters and batteries VERY early on.

LATER EDIT: Are you seriously proposing this? That normal life in a Chernobyl-level contamination area would be possible if people would only observe a few simple rules? How many times can you avoid slipping into that small ditch?
 
  • #156
zapperzero said:
Or kick up the dust. Or carry it with you into your home, where it will kill you softly for years to come. This is not a sci-fi post-apocalyptic movie. It's real life. The good guys do NOT get to saunter through the ruins, scavenging free food and drinks from the abandoned supermarkets.

EDIT: not unless they happen to stumble upon a cache of dosimeters and batteries VERY early on.

LATER EDIT: Are you seriously proposing this? That normal life in a Chernobyl-level contamination area would be possible if people would only observe a few simple rules? How many times can you avoid slipping into that small ditch?

What a frack!? WHERE did I propose anything like that?

I merely asked whether Japanese government decontaminates affected territory!

I cite myself: "Does government perform any decontamination anywhere? Fukushima prefecture? Tokyo?"

Can you read?

EDIT: to remove any doubt: I do not propose that Japanese should try to decontaminate some really heavily affected territory in order to push people to live there. I think that people which already live on some relatively lightly contaminated territory nevertheless may benefit from some decontamination; therefore I ask Japanese visitors of this forum about news on that front.
 
  • #157
nikkkom said:
I do not propose that Japanese should try to decontaminate some really heavily affected territory in order to push people to live there. I think that people which already live on some relatively lightly contaminated territory nevertheless may benefit from some decontamination; therefore I ask Japanese visitors of this forum about news on that front.

It really depends on what you decide to call "lightly contaminated". I, for one, wouldn't call Fukushima City or Namie "lightly contaminated". There is the problem of creating more hotspots. Let's say you wash down a real big roof that hasn't been rained on yet. You may have traded diffuse exposure, high up, for very concentrated exposure, on the ground where everyone is walking. These are not things one should do in a hurry, without expert supervision or proper training.

Even if decon were somewhat successful, there would still be a huge psychological problem to deal with:
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201106240204.html

People who evacuated are angry now and distrust authority. How can they return, if they don't believe when the authorities tell them it is safe to do so? I'm thinking especially of those whose homes were not in the path of the plumes (so light contamination would be expected), but are in the exclusion area nevertheless.

The authorities themselves are confused. They confuse and anger others further with contradictory information and weasel words:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110614p2a00m0na007000c.html
 
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  • #158
zapperzero said:
It really depends on what you decide to call "lightly contaminated". I, for one, wouldn't call Fukushima City or Namie "lightly contaminated". There is the problem of creating more hotspots. Let's say you wash down a real big roof that hasn't been rained on yet. You may have traded diffuse exposure, high up, for very concentrated exposure, on the ground where everyone is walking.

First, I did not propose washing roofs, I proposed washing roads.

Second, Japan has rain seasons. IIUC, right now it is in one. So roofs will (or already did) shed radioactivity to the ground. So hot spots may be already formed. I saw a video on youtube where a guy in Tokyo demonstrated with dosimeter that storm drain is much more radioactive than other nearby places. Without decontamination squads, these spots will be unmarked and uncleaned.

These are not things one should do in a hurry, without expert supervision or proper training.

IIRC Japan has armed forces. They should be trained in these activities. Why not use them?

Even if decon were somewhat successful, there would still be a huge psychological problem to deal with:
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201106240204.html

People who evacuated are angry now and distrust authority. How can they return, if they don't believe when the authorities tell them it is safe to do so? I'm thinking especially of those whose homes were not in the path of the plumes (so light contamination would be expected), but are in the exclusion area nevertheless.

The authorities themselves are confused. They confuse and anger others further with contradictory information and weasel words:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110614p2a00m0na007000c.html

Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?
 
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  • #159
nikkkom said:
Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?

I think there should NOT be people living in contaminated areas. Period.
 
  • #160
nikkkom said:
Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?

They do have people giving info about health safety in lieu of radioactive particles. Haven't you heard(well, read) of Dr.Shunichi Yamagarbagea a.k.a. Dr. "100 mSv/h radiation is safe".:mad: He's just been promoted to vice president of the Fukushima Medical University in charge of setting up an organization to conduct research on effects of radiation on the Fukushima residents.

Memorable excerpts from his first lecture/dialogue:

The name "Fukushima" will be widely known throughout the world. Fukushima, Fukushima, Fukushima, everything is Fukushima. This is great! Fukushima has beaten Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From now on, Fukushima will become the world number 1 name [when it comes to radiation/nuclear incident]. A crisis is an opportunity. This is the biggest opportunity. Hey, Fukushima, you've become famous without any efforts! [a chuckle from the audience] Why not take advantage of this opportunity? For what? Recovery.

...

To tell you the truth, radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies. So, drinking may be bad for your health, but happy drinkers are less affected by radiation, luckily. I'm not advising you to drink, but laughter will remove your radiation-phobia. But there's precious little information to scientifically explain the effects of laughter. So, please ask all your questions. This is not a lecture, it's a dialog between you and I.
 
  • #161
every comment is superflous, unfortunately
 
  • #162
Luca Bevil said:
every comment is superflous, unfortunately

I would have used quite another adjective but superfluous it definitely is.

"...radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies."

Anyone know what kind of animals he is talking about in those studies? Also, can someone point me to the studies.:confused:
 
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  • #163
Danuta said:
I would have used quite another adjective but superfluous it definitely is.

"...radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies."

Anyone know what kind of animals he is talking about in those studies? Also, can someone point me to the studies.:confused:

It's the common Japanese lab rat, also known as "citizen". You should really look up the literature, there's good stuff about the effects of pollution and induced stress in there. Why, if it weren't for Minamata, how would we have found out about the effects of mercury poisoning?

If not for Fukushima, how would we ever know what excess radioactivity in the environment does to lab rat pups? Eight thousand have been fitted with dosimeters and released back into the wild. Imagine the opportunities! Trans-generational studies! A large and diverse enough population to control for just about every factor you could imagine!

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/06/09/fukushima-school-rule-dosimeters-for-kids/
 
  • #164
zapperzero said:
It's the common Japanese lab rat, also known as "citizen".

You seem to have nailed it.

It was certainly perplexing trying to think of what animal was used for the studies that was actually seen to smile or worry, and how this could be "clearly demonstrated". I didn't realize the good Doctor meant the Japanese people.

Still, there must be important studies done and published already, for the vice president of the Fukushima Medical University in charge of setting up an organization to conduct research on effects of radiation on the Fukushima residents to publicly state these(below) as fact. (Perhaps data and study for statement no.2 comes from the former USSR.:smile:)

1. Radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried.

2. Drinking may be bad for your health, but happy drinkers are less affected by radiation.

3. Laughter will remove your radiation-phobia.

Oh and, the statement he is most famous(well, now infamous) for,

4. 100mSv/y is absolutely safe for pregnant women.

5. Adults over 20 years old have very little sensitivity to radiation. Almost zero.

Edit: forgot this gem...

6. Internal exposure has 10 times less health risk than external exposure.
 
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  • #165
zapperzero said:
I think there should NOT be people living in contaminated areas. Period.

Contamination is not binary, it gradually tapers out to zero. However you choose a level of contamination above which area should be evacuated, there will be adjacent areas with contamination slightly below this level, where people will remain and which can benefit from decontamination.
 
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  • #166
nikkkom said:
Contamination is not binary, it gradually tapers out to zero. However you choose a level of contamination above which area should be evacuated, there will be adjacent areas with contamination slightly below this level, where people will remain and which can benefit from decontamination.

If there's a health benefit from decon, then that is a contaminated area and people should not live there unless/until it is cleaned up. I do not see why this is a concept that you need to wrestle with.
 
  • #167
tsutsuji said:
Thank you for the link. I think the 0.5 μSv/h spot centered in the North of Chiba prefecture, extending west on both sides of the Edogawa river could have a link with the 22 March water crisis when significant levels of contamination were found in the Kanamachi water purification plant, which takes water from the Edogawa.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110712p2g00m0dm006000c.html "At one waste disposal center in Kashiwa, up to 70,800 becquerels of radioactive cesium per kilogram were detected from ashes collected on June 24"

Kashiwa, Chiba prefecture, is 15 km North East from Kanamachi water purification plant.
 
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  • #168
Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm
 
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  • #169
Evidence continues to emerge that they really haven't handled food contamination properly:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/13_31.html

They found that beef from the cattle had been sold by wholesalers to meat shops and restaurants in 11 prefectures.

Some 440 kilograms of beef were sold to customers in 21 shops and restaurants in 8 prefectures. The beef may have already been consumed.

Tests on beef that was left unsold at the stores show that it contained radioactive cesium 4 to 7 times the government safety level of 500 becquerels per kilogram.

Tokyo government officials say that the unsold beef has been withdrawn from shops to prevent it from being consumed.

Officials plan to continue testing the unsold beef and to investigate where the meat might have ended up.
 
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  • #170
Contaminated beef from Fukushima was served to schoolchildren at lunches in Yokohama from April 23 to June 7. Why? Because no one was buying Fukushima beef and the price of it had dropped 40 to 50%. The major and Board of Education approved of it. It was an excellent opportunity to save some money.
 
  • #171
mikefj40 said:
Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm

Please read the article. They are monitoring normal background to compare to readings if a nuclear accident were to occur. They are not looking for contamination from Fukushima.

Quote: "Mapping the normal amounts and location of radioactive material will provide a baseline for comparison to assess contamination if there were a nuclear incident like the events in Fukushima. Sampling in that area of Japan after the nuclear reactors were damaged produced radiation readings, but there was no baseline for comparison so it was unclear how much higher the levels had grown."

I wonder how they would determine if there is some radiation from Fukushima, perhaps the mixture of isotopes? If they don't screen for radiation from Fukushima their background might be artificaially high and thus minimize the comparison from another accident.
 
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  • #172
NUCENG said:
Please read the article. They are monitoring normal background to compare to readings if a nuclear accident were to occur. They are not looking for contamination from Fukushima.

I did read the article and it appears that this operation has been in the planning and preparation stage for several years. I'm just surprised that they didn't modify the mission based on the events in Japan.
 
  • #173
mikefj40 said:
I did read the article and it appears that this operation has been in the planning and preparation stage for several years. I'm just surprised that they didn't modify the mission based on the events in Japan.

My apologies if I misunderstood your intent.I am too, a little surprised. To be useful they need to be able to screen for bias from Fukushima.
 
  • #174
UC Berkeley reports their first non-detection of isotopes in SF Bay Area milk since early April.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2174
 
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  • #175
http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4777287.html Radiations above limits detected in fat greenlings (Hexagrammos otakii) and olive flounders in Fukushima prefecture. Both fish live on the bottom of the sea.
 
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  • #176
Hi Tsutsuji, that last link is broken. Either that or the story was pulled.
Gary
 
  • #177
Hi Gary,

The link is not broken. That is a link to a Television news channel website and accompanying story. Unfortunately, it is common practice here in Japan that these links last about one news cycle (24 hours) before they are removed and new content is put online in its place. In this case, the content was simply removed.
 
  • #178
mikefj40 said:
Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm

Don't know ,but Rimnet disappeared off the radar in mid March as well. I'm sure it was just a statistically predictable random coincidence:smile:
 
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  • #179
50,000+ Bq/Kg radiocesium in a soil sample collected from Kashiwa City in Chiba, on the eastern border of the Tokyo metropolis

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/07/13/52547-bqkg-cesium-radiation-soil-tokyo-135-miles-south-fukushima-34691/
 
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  • #180
Gary7 said:
Hi Tsutsuji, that last link is broken. Either that or the story was pulled.
Gary

Alternative link : http://news.tbs.co.jp/20110715/newseye/tbs_newseye4777287.html
The corresponding youtube video is still online :

http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20110718_25923.html this is an article from the 28 July 2011 issue of magazine "Josei Seven" (Women Seven) about seafood. 28 of 100 seafood products surveyed by the magazine in the first decade of July contained significant levels of radiations, although they are below the government safety standard. The magazine interviewed Professor Ikuro Anzai of Ritsumeikan university : Research undertaken after the Chernobyl accident showed that more than 50~60% of radiations are located in flounders' bones and insides, so it is advised not to eat those parts. Fish should be rinsed with water. Cesium accumulates in the gills. Let's remove the head with the gills, and the scales. When preparing fish, Belarussian people always remove skin and head. When cooking fish, boiling is better than grilling. According to some research, 70~80% of cesium is removed by boiling. Of course, this requires to dispose of the boiling water.
 
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  • #181
Jim Lagerfeld said:
50,000+ Bq/Kg radiocesium in a soil sample collected from Kashiwa City in Chiba, on the eastern border of the Tokyo metropolis

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/07/13/52547-bqkg-cesium-radiation-soil-tokyo-135-miles-south-fukushima-34691/

Yes there is a hot spot in Northern Chiba prefecture, centered not far away from Kashiwa. You can see it on Pr. Yukio Hayakawa 's radiation contour map.

18june2001JGs.jpg

High resolution map : http://gunma.zamurai.jp/pub/2011/18juneJG.jpg ; Source : http://kipuka.blog70.fc2.com/blog-entry-397.html
 
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  • #182
I've been hunting high and low for a post-Chernobyl contamination map of Kiev (the city itself, not the whole region) and haven't been able to find one. I think it may hold lessons for Fukushima City and Tokyo. Does anyone have one or know where one is? Extra points for one that shows changing contamination levels over time!
 
  • #183
Azby said:
I've been hunting high and low for a post-Chernobyl contamination map of Kiev (the city itself, not the whole region) and haven't been able to find one. I think it may hold lessons for Fukushima City and Tokyo. Does anyone have one or know where one is? Extra points for one that shows changing contamination levels over time!

Here is one :
[PLAIN]http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/tnkart50.jpg
"Cesium- 137 pollution of urban area's soils (for 1.01.2001.) Atlas "

Large size : http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/kart50.jpg ; source : http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/zemlyproe.htm (English); http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/atlaskiev.htm ecological Kiev atlas (in Ukrainian).

http://www.mext.go.jp/component/a_menu/other/detail/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/07/20/1305519_0720.pdf Update of the Distribution map of radiation dose around Fukushima Dai-ichi&Dai-Ni NPP with the integrated dose as of 11 July 2011. page 1 = Dose Monitoring Map (Estimates)(As of July 11, 2011) ; page 2 = Integrated Dose Map (Estimation )(Integrated Dose up to March 11, 2012) ; page 3 = Integrated Dose Map (Estimation)(Integrated Dose up to July 11, 2011)

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20110720-OYT1T00962.htm 34 kg of beef from cows fed with cesium rice straw have been sold in bento meals in Tokaido Shinkansen and railway stations between June 17 and July 1. The radiological status of the beef is not known.

http://mainichi.jp/life/today/news/20110721k0000m040143000c.html According to the latest inventory, 1264 cows (614 more than in the previous inventory) from 9 prefectures (5 more than in the previous inventory) were fed with cesium rice straw and distributed in 45 prefectures.
 
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  • #184
tsutsuji said:
Here is one :
[PLAIN]http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/tnkart50.jpg
"Cesium- 137 pollution of urban area's soils (for 1.01.2001.) Atlas "

Large size : http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/kart50.jpg ; source : http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/zemlyproe.htm (English); http://mail.menr.gov.ua/publ/kiev2003/atlas03_u/atlaskiev.htm ecological Kiev atlas (in Ukrainian).

Thanks Tsutuji! You're a font of timely information.

I'm not sure how to read the scale though since it's in Russian abbreviations. It might be kBq/m2, but in that case the levels seem too high. Maybe someone else can enlighten me...

Azby
 
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  • #185
  • #186
RPI presentation to ANS on Fukushima Daiichi Accident dose consequences.

http://www.ans.org/misc/FukushimaSpecialSession-Caracappa.pdf
 
  • #187
http://www.shikoku-np.co.jp/kagawa_news/social/20110723000167 Interview of Pr. Kunikazu Noguchi of Nihon University, giving low-cesium cooking tips.

http://www.asahi.com/national/jiji/JJT201107230008.html According to Pr. Masanobu Hayashi of Rakuno Gakuen University Department of veterinary radiological biology, cows are usually fed with grass or maize, but in order to produce marbled meat, rice straw is often added to the feed before shipment. The straw is dried outdoors after cutting. Cesium being soluble in water is included in the rain, and there is a high probablility that the straw was impregnated with cesium this way. Pr. Mamoru Fujiwara of Osaka University Nuclear Research Centre says that the cows' cesium is eliminated in cow dung and urine. It declines to one half in 2 or 3 months, and to one eighth in half a year. He says farmers should refrain from selling immediately and wait for half a year.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20110723/t10014409461000.html The first results of the internal contamination survey have been announced. All 122 examined people have less than 1 milisievert. The first explanatory session where 23 people were handed over their personal results took place in Namie town today.
 
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  • #188
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0723/TKY201107230678.html The count of cows from 9 prefectures that were fed with contaminated straw and delivered to the meat distribution market is now 2570.

http://mytown.asahi.com/tochigi/news.php?k_id=09000001107240003 (Tochigi local page) A dairy farmer bought 38 straw rolls as compost straw through an acquaintance, from which he sold 16 rolls to a livestock farmer. Dairy farmer : "I sold the rolls saying they were exposed to radiations. I didn't know he was feeding cows with them". Livestock farmer : "I wasn't told. If I had been told, I would not have bought them". Acquaintance : "I thought I had told they couldn't be used to feed cows. If he says so, perhaps he wasn't told. I don't remember very well".

NUCENG said:
RPI presentation to ANS on Fukushima Daiichi Accident dose consequences.

http://www.ans.org/misc/FukushimaSpecialSession-Caracappa.pdf

I found the source for the maps page 8 and 9 : http://cerea.enpc.fr/fr/fukushima.html

Cancer deaths due to accumulated radiation exposures: can’t be ruled out –conservative risk estimates ~100s cases, against an expected ~10 million cases
page 27 http://www.ans.org/misc/FukushimaSpecialSession-Caracappa.pdf

I think this is the first time I see someone risk an estimate for the Fukushima cancer risk. I have no idea whether it is accurate (or whether it requires updating in order to take into account the beef crisis), but the 800-1800 person-Sv, compared to Chernobyl's 255,000 person-Sv and TMI's 20 person-Sv, page 25 is also interesting.
 
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  • #189
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/24_18.html
Fukushima city experiments with decon for roads, houses. No mention of where the resulting radwaste ended up.
 
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  • #190
tsutsuji said:
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0723/TKY201107230678.html The count of cows from 9 prefectures that were fed with contaminated straw and delivered to the meat distribution market is now 2570.

http://mytown.asahi.com/tochigi/news.php?k_id=09000001107240003 (Tochigi local page) A dairy farmer bought 38 straw rolls as compost straw through an acquaintance, from which he sold 16 rolls to a livestock farmer. Dairy farmer : "I sold the rolls saying they were exposed to radiations. I didn't know he was feeding cows with them". Livestock farmer : "I wasn't told. If I had been told, I would not have bought them". Acquaintance : "I thought I had told they couldn't be used to feed cows. If he says so, perhaps he wasn't told. I don't remember very well".



I found the source for the maps page 8 and 9 : http://cerea.enpc.fr/fr/fukushima.html



I think this is the first time I see someone risk an estimate for the Fukushima cancer risk. I have no idea whether it is accurate (or whether it requires updating in order to take into account the beef crisis), but the 800-1800 person-Sv, compared to Chernobyl's 255,000 person-Sv and TMI's 20 person-Sv, page 25 is also interesting.

I posted the link to the RPI study to spark comments on that very point. We are getting a lot of claims based on sources that have been questioned for being fear-mongering. If this study is correct it will be nearly impossible to link any deaths to the accident.

Because the Fukushima Daichi accident involves four reactors and complete failures of containment, I find that hard to square with what I have read about Chernobyl. I have started with the premise that Fukushima would remain a tragedy due to the fear and dislocation unnecessarily added onto the back of the earthquake and tsunami, even if it didn't result in any latent cases of cancer. Based on what I have read, early onset of thyroid cancers may be the first measureable result if there will be significant consequences. Has anybody got a timeframe for the time of onset in Chernobyl?

I can see that some additional deaths of elderly patients evacuated from the exclusion area may need to be considered accident-related even if they had nothing to do with radiation.

I have a harder time blaming heat stroke on the accident, because the fact is the power reductions are voluntarily exceeding the targets set to avoid rolling blackouts. We are having heat-related deaths in the US with no reactor accidents to blame.

Suicides are another tough nut to crack. If the accident was a part of the cause, was it worsened by the devastation of the earthquake and tsunami? How much of the fear and depression was a result of learning that TEPCO and the Japanese government were lying to the people?

Sounds like a discussion worth having!
 
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  • #191
NUCENG said:
I posted the link to the RPI study to spark comments on that very point. We are getting a lot of claims based on sources that have been questioned for being fear-mongering. If this study is correct it will be nearly impossible to link any deaths to the accident.

Because the Fukushima Daichi accident involves four reactors and complete failures of containment, I find that hard to square with what I have read about Chernobyl. I have started with the premise that Fukushima would remain a tragedy due to the fear and dislocation unnecessarily added onto the back of the earthquake and tsunami, even if it didn't result in any latent cases of cancer. Based on what I have read, early onset of thyroid cancers may be the first measureable result if there will be significant consequences. Has anybody got a timeframe for the time of onset in Chernobyl?

I can see that some additional deaths of elderly patients evacuated from the exclusion area may need to be considered accident-related even if they had nothing to do with radiation.

I have a harder time blaming heat stroke on the accident, because the fact is the power reductions are voluntarily exceeding the targets set to avoid rolling blackouts. We are having heat-related deaths in the US with no reactor accidents to blame.

Suicides are another tough nut to crack. If the accident was a part of the cause, was it worsened by the devastation of the earthquake and tsunami? How much of the fear and depression was a result of learning that TEPCO and the Japanese government were lying to the people?

Sounds like a discussion worth having!


I agree, I would add people that were in need of rescuing, becuase of the earthquake/tsunami consequences, inside the evacuation zone in the earthquake/tsunami aftermath and that if in fact there were any, would have been unable to get help.

I am unsure however about if any and in case how many people could have been rescued in abscence of the Daiichi incident.
 
  • #192
Luca Bevil said:
I agree, I would add people that were in need of rescuing, becuase of the earthquake/tsunami consequences, inside the evacuation zone in the earthquake/tsunami aftermath and that if in fact there were any, would have been unable to get help.

I am unsure however about if any and in case how many people could have been rescued in abscence of the Daiichi incident.

I see that, but have no idea how this could ever be quantified. There is no way to determine whether a specific body would have been rescued in time had the accident not happened. I have seen YouTube films of reporters driving around with their dosimeters in the area that became the exclusion area, so it may also be due to some government decisions about where to send rescuers. It wouldn't be accurate to blame the thousands still missing from the earthquake and tsunami on the accident.
 
  • #193
NUCENG said:
I see that, but have no idea how this could ever be quantified. There is no way to determine whether a specific body would have been rescued in time had the accident not happened. I have seen YouTube films of reporters driving around with their dosimeters in the area that became the exclusion area, so it may also be due to some government decisions about where to send rescuers. It wouldn't be accurate to blame the thousands still missing from the earthquake and tsunami on the accident.

Not all of them... of course not, likely probably not even a significant fraction, likely a minor one, I just think it would be fair to consider this negative effect along with the other less direct ones.
 
  • #194
NUCENG said:
I posted the link to the RPI study to spark comments on that very point. We are getting a lot of claims based on sources that have been questioned for being fear-mongering. If this study is correct it will be nearly impossible to link any deaths to the accident.

Because the Fukushima Daichi accident involves four reactors and complete failures of containment, I find that hard to square with what I have read about Chernobyl. I have started with the premise that Fukushima would remain a tragedy due to the fear and dislocation unnecessarily added onto the back of the earthquake and tsunami, even if it didn't result in any latent cases of cancer. Based on what I have read, early onset of thyroid cancers may be the first measureable result if there will be significant consequences. Has anybody got a timeframe for the time of onset in Chernobyl?

I can see that some additional deaths of elderly patients evacuated from the exclusion area may need to be considered accident-related even if they had nothing to do with radiation.

I have a harder time blaming heat stroke on the accident, because the fact is the power reductions are voluntarily exceeding the targets set to avoid rolling blackouts. We are having heat-related deaths in the US with no reactor accidents to blame.

Suicides are another tough nut to crack. If the accident was a part of the cause, was it worsened by the devastation of the earthquake and tsunami? How much of the fear and depression was a result of learning that TEPCO and the Japanese government were lying to the people?

Sounds like a discussion worth having!

There's a certain amount of evidence that gives cause for optimism, and other evidence which suggests that significant risks will continue. And none of it suggests that we can stop being vigilant.

On the cause for optimism side:
--The recent report which Tsutsuji pointed to yesterday which showed that a sample of residents of some of the most contaminated areas (including Iitate-mura) had less than 1mSv of internal radiation. If this is representative of the worst, then I consider it good news.
--I just reread an analysis by Prof Madeline Yanch of MIT, from April 4, in which she outlines health effect projections for Iitate-mura. What she said was closely in line with what many reliable reports said at the time, that even in those areas the increased cancer risk would be in the hundredths of a percent range. In her report Yanch used a cumulative dose rate of 7.6 mSv through early April 2011, while MEXT data of 7/11/2011 projecting through July 2012 shows Iitate to be predominately in the 10-20mSv/yr range, with a small portion in the southeast in the 40-50 mSv/yr range. Still the risk appears to be on the same order of magnitude.
http://web.mit.edu/nse/pdfs/Yanch_impact.pdf
-- The RPI report suggests similar risk levels. Balance these against the clear evidence that the food monitoring system is porous, and hot spots are being discovered in agricultural areas fairly far away from Fukushima. Many local governments continue to resist calls by citizens to decontaminate towns, schools, and neighborhoods. And the government seems to be accelerating the timetable for the return of evacuees to parts of Fukushima without making it clear if, how, and when those towns will be decontaminated. All of these present continuing risk, but all have clear technical solutions and can be addressed. But they haven't been adequately addressed yet four months down the road, so we're justified in being skeptical that they actually will be.

We'll only be able to really evaluate the risk when 1) better contamination maps are released (reported here earlier to be scheduled for late Aug) and 2) when the results of whole-body radiation counts of larger samples of people from a wider geographic area are completed (I expect we'll be getting more information month by month).

As for the cascade of effects which stem from the accident but are not directly caused by it, I think we really should try to understand this as a broad and complex mechanism that puts many damaging processes in motion and accelerates others that existed already. So it's worthwhile to look at it very inclusively, down to mental health, family problems, distrust of Japanese goods overseas, etc, in which case I'd include my friend in Austria who was so stressed out with worry about his friends in Japan that blood vessels in his eyes burst.

Those sorts of psychological reactions by people far from Japan have real consequences, for instance in the fact that worried people in the US bought up all the available geiger counters which meant it's been very difficult for people in Japan who really need them to get their hands on one.

Still, it's equally important to accurately characterize the direct risk from the radiation itself, and to do as much as possible to mitigate and remediate it. When it comes to decontaminating places where people live or food is grown, I can't see any downside to going overboard and cleaning up everything that looks like it might possibly need it, even if the levels are only moderately above background. And the government and/or TEPCO should pay for it.
 
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  • #195
http://www.kahoku.co.jp/news/2011/07/20110725t61007.htm and http://www.nhk.or.jp/fukushima/lnews/6054314981.html :

100% of the 360,000 children in Fukushima prefecture aged 18 or younger as of 1 April 2011, will undergo thyroid cancer medical examinations by March 2014, starting this October, and then every two years. Those aged 19 to 20 years old, every 5 years.

200,000 people from the evacuation area will undergo tests such as blood and urine tests, checking for radiation induced cancers and preventing lifestyle-change related diseases like strokes, on a regular basis through their lifetime.

200,000 people from the evacuation area or other people for whom it is deemed necessary as a result of the preliminary survey will be the object of a mental health descriptive survey.

20,000 pregnant women will be surveyed.
 
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  • #196
http://mainichi.jp/select/science/news/20110728k0000m040154000c.html 11 prefectures have announced their intention to test 100% of the cows, but it is easier said than done. According to an official of Hokkaido livestock farming promotion department, "it takes 3~4 hours for one cow and we have only two measuring instruments".
 
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  • #197
A full English translation of the above mentioned article is now available : http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110728p2a00m0na016000c.html
 
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  • #198
Has anyone already seen the new MEXT airborne readings?

First readings (late April):

[URL]http://tec-sim.de/images/stories/mext1.jpg[/URL]


Third readings (late June):

[URL]http://tec-sim.de/images/stories/mext3.jpg[/URL]


Images are taken from tec-sim.de, initial source is http://eq.wide.ad.jp/files_en/110708plane2_en.pdf

It looks as if the radiation levels are decreasing...?
 
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  • #199
http://www.iwate-np.co.jp/cgi-bin/topnews.cgi?20110730_5 (Iwate Daily) Iwate prefecture created an Atomic Power Radiation Consequences Countermeasure Headquarters which held its first meeting yesterday. Cross sectoral teams will be formed in August. They plan to reinforce the radiation surveillance of schools and swimming pools. They will make plans for the control of Autumn harvests. Regarding farm animals, the control will be limited to cows, as pigs and chicken are grown indoors with mainly food from abroad. They will network with cities and village in order to manage the lack of a sufficient number of measurement tools.
 

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