Fukushima Japan earthquake - contamination & consequences outside Fukushima NPP

[nikkkom]

http://www.afpbb.com/article/disast...pbb&utm_medium=topics&utm_campaign=txt_topics Hot spots found in Fukushima City in a study made by the Kobe university school of marine study at the request of citizen groups. They are above the government level of 10,000 Bq/kg with radiations of 46,540 Bq/kg in Earth samples in one area and between 16,290 and 19,220 Bq/kg in three other areas.

http://www.jiji.com/jc/eqa?g=eqa&k=2011070500588 air radiations were measured between 3.2 and 3.83 microsievert/hour. The citizen groups stress that these areas would fall into the compulsory relocation area category if they were located in Chernobyl. At a school where the City government found 0.15 microsievert/hour, the study found 1.86 microsievert/hour and 13,812 Bq/kg.

Does government perform any decontamination anywhere? Fukushima prefecture? Tokyo?

A regular, relatively simple water spray on the roads would do a lot towards reducing dust inhalation, and will wash out more soluble contaminants (which in practice means caesium).

Does government instruct people how they can reduce airborne dust in their homes? (I would guess regular vacuuming followed by wet cleaning).

Any plans to treat affected land? You know, Belorussians have a lot of experience with that. IIRC they used deep ploughing in order to move Cs underground (best if you can carefully overturn soil layer so that former top layer goes completely underground). This reduces gamma exposure. After that, they applied a generous amount of potassium fertilizer in order to reduce caesium uptake by plants. They claim about tenfold decrease of Cs in plants.

Forests proved to be impossible to decontaminate efficiently. All Cs which happened to fall on them will stay in forest plants. I guess for now the plan is not to stroll in the forests needlessly, and not collect any wild berries there...

 

[zapperzero]

A regular, relatively simple water spray on the roads would do a lot towards reducing dust inhalation, and will wash out more soluble contaminants (which in practice means caesium).

...to the sides of the road, where it will accumulate in the gutters, making it extremely dangerous to stop there for a cigarette or whatever. Tourists in the Chernobyl area are explicitly instructed not to stop anywhere, not to walk on the roadside and not to go near puddles under any circumstances.

It's not so much the widespread contamination that's deadly, if you don't eat the produce. It's the newly-formed hotspot that gives you 100 mSv while you take a picture of the sunset.

 

[zapperzero]

Also, this:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20110705-00000095-mailo-l08

14 kBq/kg Cesium in the muck scraped off pool walls by Ibaraki schoolchildren in May. What kind of crazy has kids do any sort of cleanup in a radioactive environment? Damnit.

 

[nikkkom]

...to the sides of the road, where it will accumulate in the gutters,

Yes. Which is better than if the dust particles will be continually kicked up from road surface into the air by passing cars.

making it extremely dangerous to stop there for a cigarette or whatever.

Wrong. Stopping there for a short time (tens of minutes) won't be a big deal, unless you decide to lick the ground. For people in contaminated areas the biggest problem is long-term absorbtion of particles by inhaling, and external gamma radiation. That's why gamma-active Cs-137 needs to be removed from the most used places first (e.g. roads, squares, school yards), even if this will make it accumulate in less used places (sewers, roadside ditches).

 

[zapperzero]

Wrong. Stopping there for a short time (tens of minutes) won't be a big deal, unless you decide to lick the ground.

Or kick up the dust. Or carry it with you into your home, where it will kill you softly for years to come. This is not a sci-fi post-apocalyptic movie. It's real life. The good guys do NOT get to saunter through the ruins, scavenging free food and drinks from the abandoned supermarkets.

EDIT: not unless they happen to stumble upon a cache of dosimeters and batteries VERY early on.

LATER EDIT: Are you seriously proposing this? That normal life in a Chernobyl-level contamination area would be possible if people would only observe a few simple rules? How many times can you avoid slipping into that small ditch?

 

[nikkkom]

Or kick up the dust. Or carry it with you into your home, where it will kill you softly for years to come. This is not a sci-fi post-apocalyptic movie. It's real life. The good guys do NOT get to saunter through the ruins, scavenging free food and drinks from the abandoned supermarkets.

EDIT: not unless they happen to stumble upon a cache of dosimeters and batteries VERY early on.

LATER EDIT: Are you seriously proposing this? That normal life in a Chernobyl-level contamination area would be possible if people would only observe a few simple rules? How many times can you avoid slipping into that small ditch?

What a frack!? WHERE did I propose anything like that?

I merely asked whether Japanese government decontaminates affected territory!

I cite myself: "Does government perform any decontamination anywhere? Fukushima prefecture? Tokyo?"

Can you read?

EDIT: to remove any doubt: I do not propose that Japanese should try to decontaminate some really heavily affected territory in order to push people to live there. I think that people which already live on some relatively lightly contaminated territory nevertheless may benefit from some decontamination; therefore I ask Japanese visitors of this forum about news on that front.

 

[zapperzero]

I do not propose that Japanese should try to decontaminate some really heavily affected territory in order to push people to live there. I think that people which already live on some relatively lightly contaminated territory nevertheless may benefit from some decontamination; therefore I ask Japanese visitors of this forum about news on that front.

It really depends on what you decide to call "lightly contaminated". I, for one, wouldn't call Fukushima City or Namie "lightly contaminated". There is the problem of creating more hotspots. Let's say you wash down a real big roof that hasn't been rained on yet. You may have traded diffuse exposure, high up, for very concentrated exposure, on the ground where everyone is walking. These are not things one should do in a hurry, without expert supervision or proper training.

Even if decon were somewhat successful, there would still be a huge psychological problem to deal with:
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201106240204.html

People who evacuated are angry now and distrust authority. How can they return, if they don't believe when the authorities tell them it is safe to do so? I'm thinking especially of those whose homes were not in the path of the plumes (so light contamination would be expected), but are in the exclusion area nevertheless.

The authorities themselves are confused. They confuse and anger others further with contradictory information and weasel words:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110614p2a00m0na007000c.html

 

[nikkkom]

It really depends on what you decide to call "lightly contaminated". I, for one, wouldn't call Fukushima City or Namie "lightly contaminated". There is the problem of creating more hotspots. Let's say you wash down a real big roof that hasn't been rained on yet. You may have traded diffuse exposure, high up, for very concentrated exposure, on the ground where everyone is walking.

First, I did not propose washing roofs, I proposed washing roads.

Second, Japan has rain seasons. IIUC, right now it is in one. So roofs will (or already did) shed radioactivity to the ground. So hot spots may be already formed. I saw a video on youtube where a guy in Tokyo demonstrated with dosimeter that storm drain is much more radioactive than other nearby places. Without decontamination squads, these spots will be unmarked and uncleaned.

These are not things one should do in a hurry, without expert supervision or proper training.

IIRC Japan has armed forces. They should be trained in these activities. Why not use them?

Even if decon were somewhat successful, there would still be a huge psychological problem to deal with:
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201106240204.html

People who evacuated are angry now and distrust authority. How can they return, if they don't believe when the authorities tell them it is safe to do so? I'm thinking especially of those whose homes were not in the path of the plumes (so light contamination would be expected), but are in the exclusion area nevertheless.

The authorities themselves are confused. They confuse and anger others further with contradictory information and weasel words:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110614p2a00m0na007000c.html

Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?

 

[zapperzero]

Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?

I think there should NOT be people living in contaminated areas. Period.

 

[Danuta]

Do you think that by not doing any visible work in mapping radiation and cleaning it up, and by not creating TV programs about health safety rules for inhabitants of contaminated areas government can instill more confidence in these people?

They do have people giving info about health safety in lieu of radioactive particles. Haven't you heard(well, read) of Dr.Shunichi Yamagarbagea a.k.a. Dr. "100 mSv/h radiation is safe". He's just been promoted to vice president of the Fukushima Medical University in charge of setting up an organization to conduct research on effects of radiation on the Fukushima residents.

Memorable excerpts from his first lecture/dialogue:

The name "Fukushima" will be widely known throughout the world. Fukushima, Fukushima, Fukushima, everything is Fukushima. This is great! Fukushima has beaten Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From now on, Fukushima will become the world number 1 name [when it comes to radiation/nuclear incident]. A crisis is an opportunity. This is the biggest opportunity. Hey, Fukushima, you've become famous without any efforts! [a chuckle from the audience] Why not take advantage of this opportunity? For what? Recovery.

...

To tell you the truth, radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies. So, drinking may be bad for your health, but happy drinkers are less affected by radiation, luckily. I'm not advising you to drink, but laughter will remove your radiation-phobia. But there's precious little information to scientifically explain the effects of laughter. So, please ask all your questions. This is not a lecture, it's a dialog between you and I.

 

[Luca Bevil]

every comment is superflous, unfortunately

 

[Danuta]

every comment is superflous, unfortunately

I would have used quite another adjective but superfluous it definitely is.

"...radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies."

Anyone know what kind of animals he is talking about in those studies? Also, can someone point me to the studies.

 

[zapperzero]

I would have used quite another adjective but superfluous it definitely is.

"...radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried. This has clearly been demonstrated by animal studies."

Anyone know what kind of animals he is talking about in those studies? Also, can someone point me to the studies.

It's the common Japanese lab rat, also known as "citizen". You should really look up the literature, there's good stuff about the effects of pollution and induced stress in there. Why, if it weren't for Minamata, how would we have found out about the effects of mercury poisoning?

If not for Fukushima, how would we ever know what excess radioactivity in the environment does to lab rat pups? Eight thousand have been fitted with dosimeters and released back into the wild. Imagine the opportunities! Trans-generational studies! A large and diverse enough population to control for just about every factor you could imagine!

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/06/09/fukushima-school-rule-dosimeters-for-kids/

 

[Danuta]

It's the common Japanese lab rat, also known as "citizen".

You seem to have nailed it.

It was certainly perplexing trying to think of what animal was used for the studies that was actually seen to smile or worry, and how this could be "clearly demonstrated". I didn't realize the good Doctor meant the Japanese people.

Still, there must be important studies done and published already, for the vice president of the Fukushima Medical University in charge of setting up an organization to conduct research on effects of radiation on the Fukushima residents to publicly state these(below) as fact. (Perhaps data and study for statement no.2 comes from the former USSR.)

1. Radiation doesn't affect people who are smiling, but those who are worried.

2. Drinking may be bad for your health, but happy drinkers are less affected by radiation.

3. Laughter will remove your radiation-phobia.

Oh and, the statement he is most famous(well, now infamous) for,

4. 100mSv/y is absolutely safe for pregnant women.

5. Adults over 20 years old have very little sensitivity to radiation. Almost zero.

Edit: forgot this gem...

6. Internal exposure has 10 times less health risk than external exposure.

 

[nikkkom]

I think there should NOT be people living in contaminated areas. Period.

Contamination is not binary, it gradually tapers out to zero. However you choose a level of contamination above which area should be evacuated, there will be adjacent areas with contamination slightly below this level, where people will remain and which can benefit from decontamination.

 

[zapperzero]

Contamination is not binary, it gradually tapers out to zero. However you choose a level of contamination above which area should be evacuated, there will be adjacent areas with contamination slightly below this level, where people will remain and which can benefit from decontamination.

If there's a health benefit from decon, then that is a contaminated area and people should not live there unless/until it is cleaned up. I do not see why this is a concept that you need to wrestle with.

 

[tsutsuji]

Thank you for the link. I think the 0.5 μSv/h　spot centered in the North of Chiba prefecture, extending west on both sides of the Edogawa river could have a link with the 22 March water crisis when significant levels of contamination were found in the Kanamachi water purification plant, which takes water from the Edogawa.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110712p2g00m0dm006000c.html "At one waste disposal center in Kashiwa, up to 70,800 becquerels of radioactive cesium per kilogram were detected from ashes collected on June 24"

Kashiwa, Chiba prefecture, is 15 km North East from Kanamachi water purification plant.

 

[mikefj40]

Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm

 

[SteveElbows]

Evidence continues to emerge that they really haven't handled food contamination properly:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/13_31.html

They found that beef from the cattle had been sold by wholesalers to meat shops and restaurants in 11 prefectures.

Some 440 kilograms of beef were sold to customers in 21 shops and restaurants in 8 prefectures. The beef may have already been consumed.

Tests on beef that was left unsold at the stores show that it contained radioactive cesium 4 to 7 times the government safety level of 500 becquerels per kilogram.

Tokyo government officials say that the unsold beef has been withdrawn from shops to prevent it from being consumed.

Officials plan to continue testing the unsold beef and to investigate where the meat might have ended up.

 

[Danuta]

Contaminated beef from Fukushima was served to schoolchildren at lunches in Yokohama from April 23 to June 7. Why? Because no one was buying Fukushima beef and the price of it had dropped 40 to 50%. The major and Board of Education approved of it. It was an excellent opportunity to save some money.

 

[NUCENG]

Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm

Please read the article. They are monitoring normal background to compare to readings if a nuclear accident were to occur. They are not looking for contamination from Fukushima.

Quote: "Mapping the normal amounts and location of radioactive material will provide a baseline for comparison to assess contamination if there were a nuclear incident like the events in Fukushima. Sampling in that area of Japan after the nuclear reactors were damaged produced radiation readings, but there was no baseline for comparison so it was unclear how much higher the levels had grown."

I wonder how they would determine if there is some radiation from Fukushima, perhaps the mixture of isotopes? If they don't screen for radiation from Fukushima their background might be artificaially high and thus minimize the comparison from another accident.

 

[mikefj40]

Please read the article. They are monitoring normal background to compare to readings if a nuclear accident were to occur. They are not looking for contamination from Fukushima.

I did read the article and it appears that this operation has been in the planning and preparation stage for several years. I'm just surprised that they didn't modify the mission based on the events in Japan.

 

[NUCENG]

I did read the article and it appears that this operation has been in the planning and preparation stage for several years. I'm just surprised that they didn't modify the mission based on the events in Japan.

My apologies if I misunderstood your intent.I am too, a little surprised. To be useful they need to be able to screen for bias from Fukushima.

 

[mikefj40]

UC Berkeley reports their first non-detection of isotopes in SF Bay Area milk since early April.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2174

 

[tsutsuji]

http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4777287.html Radiations above limits detected in fat greenlings (Hexagrammos otakii) and olive flounders in Fukushima prefecture. Both fish live on the bottom of the sea.

 

[Gary7]

Hi Tsutsuji, that last link is broken. Either that or the story was pulled.
Gary

 

[ThomS]

Hi Gary,

The link is not broken. That is a link to a Television news channel website and accompanying story. Unfortunately, it is common practice here in Japan that these links last about one news cycle (24 hours) before they are removed and new content is put online in its place. In this case, the content was simply removed.

 

[Caniche]

Here we are, 5 months post event and they are just starting to survey the Puget Sound for contamination. Would the data have been too scary if they tried this back in March?

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2011_news/11-105.htm

Don't know ,but Rimnet disappeared off the radar in mid March as well. I'm sure it was just a statistically predictable random coincidence

 

[Jim Lagerfeld]

50,000+ Bq/Kg radiocesium in a soil sample collected from Kashiwa City in Chiba, on the eastern border of the Tokyo metropolis

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/07/13/52547-bqkg-cesium-radiation-soil-tokyo-135-miles-south-fukushima-34691/

 

[tsutsuji]

Hi Tsutsuji, that last link is broken. Either that or the story was pulled.
Gary

Alternative link : http://news.tbs.co.jp/20110715/newseye/tbs_newseye4777287.html
The corresponding youtube video is still online :

http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20110718_25923.html this is an article from the 28 July 2011 issue of magazine "Josei Seven" (Women Seven) about seafood. 28 of 100 seafood products surveyed by the magazine in the first decade of July contained significant levels of radiations, although they are below the government safety standard. The magazine interviewed Professor Ikuro Anzai of Ritsumeikan university : Research undertaken after the Chernobyl accident showed that more than 50~60% of radiations are located in flounders' bones and insides, so it is advised not to eat those parts. Fish should be rinsed with water. Cesium accumulates in the gills. Let's remove the head with the gills, and the scales. When preparing fish, Belarussian people always remove skin and head. When cooking fish, boiling is better than grilling. According to some research, 70~80% of cesium is removed by boiling. Of course, this requires to dispose of the boiling water.